Trinity

Same greetings to you Bro Apple Pie

Kindly quote the authority/reference to your translation where you think it to be more correct than what you say "relying on Islam to dictate". Sure thing�   ��� ������ ��������� ��� �������� ��� ��������� ����� ��������� ����� ������� ������ �������� �������� ���������� ������ ����� �������� ������� ������� ������������ ���������� ����� �������� ������� ������ ��������� ��������� ���������� ����� ��������� ��������� �������� ������� ������ �������� ������� ������ ������� ����������� ���� ������� ���� ���������� ��� ��� ������������� ����� ��� ��������� ������� ��������� ��������

Since I am not a linguistic scholar nor do I claim to have any knowledge of reading your coded Arabic, therefore your above reply is of no use me. Kindly come down to my level of common understanding of original Arabic script, if at all you need it. What has this to do with the source of your translation and is not a valid way of quoting a reference. Without any of this evidence, your translation (distorted one) is of no value here. Your words are against yours, if not supported by valid references. Isn�t it? It must also not be forgotten that if someone want to see as what Muslim must believe in Quran, then one has to bring evidence from within the Islam and not from outside of it. This is, of course, not unique to Islam and must be applied to other faith based religions e.g Christianity. Therefore, when the Bible is discussed, one shall abide by this rule of the discussions. Nevertheless, at this time, I have not yet applied this rule in responding to your preferable translation, but discussed it entirely from your own stand point of view. It is little na�ve, at this time to ask for the original Arabic of this verse, where my explanation is entirely based upon your own translation.

Kindly confirm whether you agree or disagree and then ask for reference for authenticity. You stated that I �distorted� the meaning of this ayah�thus; it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate precisely where this occurred.  You are evading your duty�

Well my brother, evasion is the last thing you would expect from me, though my other commitments may cause some delays in my posts. Secondly, it is you who have rejected all the normative translations of this verse and brought in yours. Do you really want me to bring these commonly used translations here and only then you would agree? (In the end of this post, I have even done that along with original Arabic script). Moreover, I am simply using your own translation and not from elsewhere, therefore, your avoidance of my question is meaningless. Here I repeat it again as it may not be lost in such long posts and see as what you have to say about it:

�First of all, even with your own distorted meaning, the message in this verse of Quran is clearly addressing the people of the book and more specifically to my Christian brothers i.e. you (I think). Hence, the opening sentence says "do not exceed the limits" and you very well know what limits you have exceeded; if not, the rest of the verse clarifies it to you.�   And you responded as,

�Please show us the Arabic of this ayah�.so that we can see who has the best comprehension of its content�.thanks�

This reply of yours indicates your hesitation or avoidance to reply.

BTW, the reference for the italicized bolded and underlined text is your own translation and none other. Again�show us the Arabic�

Again, your demand is meaningless here as I am simply using your own translation. Isn�t this seems logical to you? I have not yet questioned, but merely commented to keep my reservations, about your translation.

Unless, as we can plainly see for ourselves, you don�t understand the mother-tongue in which you are entrusting your eternal soul towards�

I hope now you would reconcile your comments by not assuming too much of my understanding.

So do you think, this is the only form of Trinity being denounced? Show us the word �trinity� in the Koran�

Well again, my brother I am sorry to say that your question is meaningless since it is you and only you who used word � Trinity� by giving reference of sura 5 of Quran and yet you are asking me this question? This is totally uncomprehensible?

So you mean only those Christians who believe in this form of Trinity are wrong? Hmm!!! What does your book of faith state�?

Sure, my brother, my book of faith denounces all forms of worship to anyone except to Allah and Allah alone, what to talk about just any form of �Trinity�. On the more I have provided you the evidence from chapter 112.

So what about the other forms of Trinities? I think there are several of them and all depends upon to whom (Christian) you ask to? Other �forms� of trinities�.?

Count yourself the denominations of Christianities and you will not have to use �?� to understand other forms of it.

 

Quote: 4.171 informs us that the �Triune� nature should be: �         �Allah� �         Spirit �         Jesus i.e. Son; i.e. Word I think that you can easily see this for yourself, even by reading the �popular� English translations� Oh, I see. So this is your preferred form of Trinity my brother that you think is correct. This is the �form� listed in 4.171�   Why deny�

If your monocle is just focused with your own presuppositions then how shall anyone even consider your interpretation of the verse to be as un-biased?

So why not go and tell your own brothers who believe in the other forms of Trinity that they are totally wrong as the Allah of Muslims also testifies it.  Again�what �forms� do the authors of the Koran mention�.?

It is your own conclusion, so to test it, why not you go ahead proclaim them wrong, your own brothers of other denominations.

 

Wow!! What a manneover to link up the two verses to extract your own meanings. Do you evaluate ayahs in your book of faith in isolation from each other�.?

Well my brother, we don�t first conclude and then collect evidence as you have done it, but opposite of it. On the more, I have specifically pointed out the fallacy of your maneuver in linking the two, but somehow, you divided my response in such a way that it does not reflect as what my objection was. Hmm!! Seem familiar tactics to cover up. Nevertheless the truth shall come out automatically.

Well, my dear brother, are you reading the same passage of Quran (4:171) that you have posted above to extract this meaning {�Triune� nature should be...."}. This is totally a illogical explanation of the meanings. So you mean to say that Allah (or as you say authors of Quran) mean to negate one form of Trinity and to replace it with yet another form of it in this verse 4:171. Does this surprise you�.?

Your maneuvers are not unique, but astonished to see how people manipulate the things. I was expecting that you would rather define as how �{�Triune� nature should be....� understood, but instead you preferred to avoid the question?

This is indeed an extrapolational explanation to suit your own purpose. Again�.instead of dancing endlessly around the issue at hand�.why not (if you disagree) come forward with your understanding of the Arabic of this ayah�  You are stalling�

My dear brother, there is no �stalling� or �un-stalling� of others over here with my discussions. I am not here to make people feel ashamed or feel low of their self. I am here to bring logical understanding of the issues, so that anyone who may like to use it, shall understand it from entirely of his own inner consciousness sooner or later. It is not (I repeat Not) to make people surrender or overcome them in any form of fight or duel etc.

 

Specific to this part of your comments, suffice is to say that without evidence, your translation is meaningless, though I have also provided the actual Arabic script at the end of this reply.

This is especially true when in the same very verse, with your own distorted translation, we read ""�wa� and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you,        but Allah (is) one Allah"."  Again�.why are you completely SKIPPING over what precedes this:   �       �wa� and his Word �       �wa� and a Spirit     Don�t turn away from your scriptures�

Probably you didn�t realize that these are duly taken care of in the later part of my reply where the identity of prophet Isa is being defined. Probably one has to jump long to link this part of the passage with the identity of Prophet Isa, which only you can do. Hence no turning away but rationally reading the verse.

 

Quote: Let us proceed as what Allah (God) tell you about this concept in this verse. Here Allah (God) says from your own distorted translation "�wa� and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you,     but Allah (is) one Allah". Interesting that you totally and completely SKIPPED right on over �allah�s� triune attributes as if they were not even there�interesting indeed�! Well my brother I have not skipped any of the attributes of Allah mentioned before this part of the verse. Your allegation is found baseless and lacks evidence. You just did it again�.why are you completely SKIPPING over what precedes this:   �       �wa� and his Word �       �wa� and a Spirit     Don�t turn away from your scriptures�

Alright my brother, let see what this {�wa� and his word} and {�wa� and a spirit} could mean as regard to Prophet Isa. Clearly these both are not a unique attributes that are given to him. For example, in the creation of the world, Allah simply say a word �Be� and that is it, whole world got created from this �word�. Same is the case with �a spirit�. For example, I do have �a spirit� like any other living thing on this earth. Don�t you also have �a spirit�? So, what is unique about this part of the scripture that you are trying to emphasis upon?

On the more, Prophet Isa is named as "ibn Mariam" and not "ibn allah" in this verse, so which attributes are you taking about? No evidence and of course without logic. Perhaps you can define  ï¿½yakoona� for us�.   We will be waiting�

See at the end of this response for word-to-word translation of this verse.

Quote: And so�you decided to settle on �allah� is one. Well, it would be more interesting if you bring logic to your arguements instead of repeating my understanding, only if you have one. So�.now your own scriptures lack logic�?

Have you provided any logic except your distorted translation, on which itself, I have clearly shown you through logical reading that Allah is One and only one.

Quote: Well�please tell us exactly how this is ANY different than what the Holy Bible tells us�? Holy Bible??? Yes�.Holy Bible�

I respect your faith even if it is without logic.

Which Bible or which part of Bible you think is Holy and how? Since the Koran is 99% re-translated Biblical Hebrew and Greek, you tell us�

Good answer, my brother! Thanks for your trust in Quran. So it is basically Quran that makes it Holy for you? Hmm! Thanks again for your respect. I am surely indebted as indeed Quran affirms the scriptures sent by Allah prior to it.

This is indeed, yet another interesting story that you may not like to hear from me. So go and refer this question to your Christian scholars. Please don't take me wrong when I say this as I have great respect for your scripture whatever you consider it since it(NT) does contain some original teachings of Jesus. However, teachings of Jesus in the gospels is one thing and its extrapolational philosopy based upon St. Paul's teachings is yet another. Hopefully you know the difference between the two. You seem doubtful regarding the authenticity of the Holy Bible� Thus, I pose to you to pick ANY portion of the Koran that you feel is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence. If you decline, then your argument is completely one from silence�

Affirmation of previous scriptures doesn�t imply they would remain preserved in the annals of history. Rather, I would ask you to bring the original gospel (NT) of Aramaic origin (the mother tongue of Jesus) to prove your point. All you have is at most, Greek versions of unknown authorship. Your silence on the issue shall be the right answer for your own question, if nothing else.

 

Quote: Hence, my dear brother, this is the core, unambigous, and clear message for you (my Christian brothers). Do you accept this? Accept what�.? Accept as what is being asked in this verse to you. Shall I repeat your own translation; again? To summarize, from your own translation that, Jesus was, without going into exaggeration in your religion, a son of Mariam a messanger of Allah a word from Allah a spirit sent by Allah Awesome� I thought that �allah� was one�? Now you are telling us that he is Spirit? Now you are telling us that he is Word?

Again, instead of logically, either refuting the argument or accepting it, you resorted to the strategy of avoiding the answer. Is this the way you really solace your inner self? Allah and Jesus are two separate entities all by logic. If you wish to continue arguing based upon your faith alone, what do you expect then?

I really don't understand this term "Uniplural"? Is this a new definition my brother has invented to justify the apparant mismatch in his understanding of God? Uni = one Plural = more than one Put them together, and you have an epithet that describes the Creator God of the holy Bible which was subsequently copied over to the god of the Koran�

 So are you suggesting this self contradictory term a replacement of �Trinity�? You must have received a �Noble� prize for this hypothetic term from your Church or at least must have been counted in the honor role of �saints� for coining this term? So, should we call you St. Apple Pie in your honor? Well done my brother for pathetically patching up through the use of self-contradictory terminologies.

The author of Quran is none but Allah Himself. First of all, it is authors (plural). Secondly, the Arabic of your book of faith amply describes Jesus as God Almighty. Since you follow only the �popular� English translations; you are totally unaware of this�

I have not used my �popular� English translation but purely from your own translation. Hence your point is totally invalid.  Secondly, statements like �it is authors (plural)� are merely assertions without evidence which I can�t expect from my brother like you. Thirdly, you are unable to defend even single verse to suit your purpose as what to talk of �amply describes�.

The same God to whom Prophet Jesus also used to pray. Jesus prayed to Himself�?

Again, your response reflects your narrow beam of thought. Instead of refuting or presenting any evidence to your point you merely questioned it based upon your own assumptions. So, here is the passage from your own Bible with your own (Popular Christian) translation; from Matthew 26 (New American Standard Bible):

�The Garden of Gethsemane

   ³⁶Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to His disciples, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."

   ³⁷And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be grieved and distressed.

   ³⁸Then He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me."

   ³⁹And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

   ⁴⁰And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?

   ⁴¹" Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

   ⁴²He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."

   ⁴³Again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy.

   ⁴⁴And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.

   ⁴⁵Then He came to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.

   ⁴⁶"Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!"

�

So, my friend not only once but thrice it is mentioned clearly without ambiguity that Jesus prayed to God. All this from your own accepted (I assume, if not then let us know your preferred translation of this passage) version and translation of Bible.

"ambigous to you" means "not clear to you" as opposed to asking me. BTW, I have already presented the clear view about Prophet Isa and see what is not obvious to you and then we can talk more on it. When did your �clear view� appear�? Was it from the �popular� English translations that you are so fond of�.? Tell us�.was the Koran written in English�?

My brother, I have totally relied upon your own provided translation and yet you accuse me of using �popular� english translation. This is what I say that one has to be more logical than typical.

Quote: And�.? How is this any different that what the Holy Bible teaches�.? Probably you haven't paid attention to this part of the verse "112.003 YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; PICKTHAL: He begetteth not nor was begotten. SHAKIR: He begets not, nor is He begotten. " otherwise you would not have asked this question. Jesus was �conceived� of the Holy Spirit�.not �allah�� This is stated both in the Holy Bible and then later copied into the Koran�

So, you mean Allah is separate from �Holy Spirit�. Hmm!! Hence you contradicted your own assumption.

Quote: So, my dear brother, is there any more ambiguity left that indeed Trinity is not divine nature of God, but God is only One. Your very own book of faith clearly shows a Uniplural entity�.same as the Holy Bible� Perhaps its time that you comprehend this for yourself� You haven't define what is "Uniplural". Done�

Since you contradicted your own assumption, your self-contradictory terminology is useless for logical analysis of any kind.

Quote: On the more, even this very word "Triune" or "Trinity" doesn't exist in whole of the Bible but a later distorted human explanations of the scriptures you have. Fact of the matter is, the word �trinity� does not appear in the Holy Bible NOR the Koran.  Well, aren't you falsifying your own reference of Quran both in this verse 4:171 and chapter 5 where "Trinity" is denounced? Again�show us the Arabic word �trinity�� We will be waiting�

My brother, again I have simply alluded to your own statements to be self- contradictory here as well. So onus is onto you to clarify as what do they mean to avoid this apparent contradiction? Isn�t it?

Quote: Hence, since it does NOT appear in the Koran, you really have no scriptural authority to denounce the concept� Thanks� Since your basic premise is false, so does to your logic. Isn't it? You cannot produce the Arabic word for �trinity�.  This is abundantly clear. Thus�you hold tenaciously to something that is not even mentioned in your book of faith�hence, YOUR premise is completely unfounded� You are a follower if Islam�instead of the Koran�

Now over here, let us see what is your logic and see if it is really logical to conclude as what you have presented. According to you, since word �trinity� doesn�t appear both in Quran and Bible, hence one can�t use either Quran or Bible to denounce this concept from the scriptures. Is this what you mean? If yes, then others on this forum would well judge your logic as for me this is totally illogical. If the concept itself is foreign to the Bible, how it can be used to explain the Bible in the first place?

 Secondly, Quran denounces the concept of �Trinity� by alluding to it as �three� since the word itself is foreign to the Bible. So, how would someone expect specific word �Trinity� to be described in the Quran, if its not even mentioned in the Bible itself. Your questioning is flawed with logic.

For completeness, here is the relevent verse from Chapter 5 (a translation from 3 different people just to make sure translational errors are reduced for our overall understanding): Great�.more �popular� English translations�forget the Arabic�lol� Please tell us about �translational errors��.thanks�

My dear brother, if you have any disagreement on anything, please present your evidence than simply laughing it away. This reflects avoidance from the facts.

Secondly, about translational errors, only those who have the original, can understand its importance. Simply put, these are errors associated with any translation how accurate the translator may he try to be. These are inherent with any translation and not just specific to Quran. This mean, I do acknowledge the weakness of reading Quran from its translation as it implies reading it through human understanding of its translator, which of course is not free from un-intentional flaws. Usually, these kind of errors are minimized (to a certain level), by reading through more than one translations. However, this being said, one may also realize that since the original script is preserved, one may always refer back to it for more accuracy (if one is willing to learn the Arabic).

So far so good with Quran, lets apply the same tests to your �Holy� Bible and see if it comes up with this merit. First of all, almost all Christian scholars, unanimously agree that the original teachings of Jesus have been lost. Hence, all they have now is �at most� first translation from the original. This necessarily implies that the knowledge about these translational errors is lost forever. All we read from NT is then based upon suspicion of these irrecoverable errors. It would be nice to see your point of view in this regard.

005.072 YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust. 005.073 YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.   ������ ������ ��������� �������� ����� ������ ���� ���������� ����� �������� ������� ���������� ��� ����� ������������ ���������� ������ ������ ����������� ������� ��� �������� �������� ������ ������� ������ ������� ���������� ����������� �������� ����� �������������� ���� �������� ������� ������ ��������� �������� ����� ������ ������� ��������� ����� ���� ������� ������ ������� ������� ����� ����� ���������� ������ ���������� ������������ ��������� ��������� �������� ������� �������     Hopefully, this shall be sufficient for today. Hopefully�

Brother, as I said this form of text is unknown to me. So, either provide original Arabic text or your own preferable version of its translation. Secondly, you haven�t commented upon this verse from chapter 5 which clearly shows, without ambiguity, that Allah is not Christ. Your same tactics to avoid the evidence or logic is not understood.

Certainly, only Allah knows the best. Allah who..?   Take care�

Assalamu alaikum,

Akhi, you are truly wasting your time and effort. This individual has no idea what s/he he is talking about and no understanding of the Arabic language. The last set of "quotes" s/he provides are nothing but gibberish.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Thanks for your replies�

It is most interesting that you spend the bulk of your reply admitting that you comprehend little to nothing regarding the classic Arabic (to which you are entrusting your eternal soul towards)�and then you repeatedly put forth several of the popular English translations in order to �normalize� and �compensate� for any errors that might still be in these same popular English translations.

Even your �googled� links only show the Arabic script next to a Yusuf Ali translation � with absolutely zero information or references as to the reasoning behind his exegesis (as if he even performed one in the first place).

Your other link goes one small step further by showing the Arabic script with a predetermined English rendering below it�not referenced to anything (surprise)�and to top it off, it does not match the English text to which it is summed.

So�.please inform us regarding the popular English translation emanating from Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, & Shakir�please show us the source references and Exegetical tafsirs that they used in the compilation of their opus�

Good luck�

�First of all, even with your own distorted meaning, the message in this verse of Quran is clearly addressing the people of the book and more specifically to my Christian brothers i.e. you (I think). Hence, the opening sentence says "do not exceed the limits" and you very well know what limits you have exceeded; if not, the rest of the verse clarifies it to you.�   And you responded as,

�Please show us the Arabic of this ayah�.so that we can see who has the best comprehension of its content�.thanks�

This reply of yours indicates your hesitation or avoidance to reply.

Again�YOU are the one claiming a �distortion� of the rendering�

Where is the �distortion��?

Sure, my brother, my book of faith denounces all forms of worship to anyone except to Allah and Allah alone, what to talk about just any form of �Trinity�. On the more I have provided you the evidence from chapter 112.

Again�.demonstrate to us just how sura 112 is different than that of what is stated in the Holy Bible�

Specific to this part of your comments, suffice is to say that without evidence, your translation is meaningless, though I have also provided the actual Arabic script at the end of this reply.

Specifically, and without your typical generalizations, what �evidence� do you require�?

Alright my brother, let see what this {�wa� and his word} and {�wa� and a spirit} could mean as regard to Prophet Isa. Clearly these both are not a unique attributes that are given to him. For example, in the creation of the world, Allah simply say a word �Be� and that is it, whole world got created from this �word�.

Interesting��the whole world got created from this �word��.we thought that �allah� was an absolute one�.and yet we are informed that he consists of a Word�.!

Same as we are told in the Holy Bible.

However�.how is it used in 4.171�.?

Same is the case with �a spirit�.

The world got created from his spirit�?

Again�we thought that �allah� was an absolute one�.and yet we are informed that he consists of a Spirit�.!

For example, I do have �a spirit� like any other living thing on this earth. Don�t you also have �a spirit�? So, what is unique about this part of the scripture that you are trying to emphasis upon?

Amazing�

You don�t even realize what you have just admitted to�

Your �one allah�, is composed of a Spirit and a Word.

So much for his absolute �oneness��.!

See at the end of this response for word-to-word translation of this verse.

What a cop-out�

Show us the Lexical definition for the word �yakoona��.a definition that shows ALL the possible definitions�.

Good answer, my brother! Thanks for your trust in Quran. So it is basically Quran that makes it Holy for you? Hmm! Thanks again for your respect. I am surely indebted as indeed Quran affirms the scriptures sent by Allah prior to it.

The Koran is a no more than a second-hand Arabic translation of Biblical Hebrew and Arabic�as such, we would predict that it will tell us basically the same information like that of the Holy Bible:

• Jesus is God
• Jesus was Crucified
• Jesus was Resurrected
• Jesus Judges the dead

And�it does�.

I have not used my �popular� English translation but purely from your own translation.

Please explain to us how Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, and Shakir are �purely� your own translation�?

 Hence your point is totally invalid.  Secondly, statements like �it is authors (plural)� are merely assertions without evidence which I can�t expect from my brother like you.

Since there are no original 1400 year old Korans in existence�.what evidence do you have to go on�.?

Islamic Tradition�?

 Thirdly, you are unable to defend even single verse to suit your purpose as what to talk of �amply describes�.

Which ayah is bothering you�?

Again, your response reflects your narrow beam of thought. Instead of refuting or presenting any evidence to your point you merely questioned it based upon your own assumptions. So, here is the passage from your own Bible with your own (Popular Christian) translation; from Matthew 26 (New American Standard Bible):

�The Garden of Gethsemane

   ³⁶Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to His disciples, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."

   ³⁷And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be grieved and distressed.

   ³⁸Then He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me."

   ³⁹And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

   ⁴⁰And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?

   ⁴¹" Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

   ⁴²He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."

   ⁴³Again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy.

   ⁴⁴And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.

   ⁴⁵Then He came to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.

   ⁴⁶"Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!"

�

So, my friend not only once but thrice it is mentioned clearly without ambiguity that Jesus prayed to God. All this from your own accepted (I assume, if not then let us know your preferred translation of this passage) version and translation of Bible.

Thanks for saving us the footwork�

Why do you think that Jesus prayed THREE times to the ONE God�.?!

So, you mean Allah is separate from �Holy Spirit�. Hmm!! Hence you contradicted your own assumption.

No.

The �allah� of the Koran consists of a spirit.

How can �allah� be absolutely one and still consist of a spirit�?!

Now over here, let us see what is your logic and see if it is really logical to conclude as what you have presented. According to you, since word �trinity� doesn�t appear both in Quran and Bible, hence one can�t use either Quran or Bible to denounce this concept from the scriptures. Is this what you mean? If yes, then others on this forum would well judge your logic as for me this is totally illogical. If the concept itself is foreign to the Bible, how it can be used to explain the Bible in the first place?

The word trinity is an epithet used to describe the way in which the Creator God of the Holy Bible has chosen to reveal Himself:

• God the Father
• God the Spirit
• God the Son

The word is not found in either the Holy Bible nor the Koran.

However, the concept is indeed found in both the holy Bible and the Koran.

For Muslims to use a popular English translation that use the word �trinity� are incorrect, as the word was never in the classic Arabic.

However�the Koran does inform us (in sura 5) not to call �allah� Three.  These three being Jesus, Mary, and �allah�...

In 4.171�the authors of the Koran also list-off that �allah� consists of Word, and Spirit, in addition to himself�.and yet still do not call �allah� Three�

The reason being that that the �allah� of the Koran has each of the triune entities equivalent to himself.

Sound familiar�?

 Secondly, Quran denounces the concept of �Trinity� by alluding to it as �three� since the word itself is foreign to the Bible. So, how would someone expect specific word �Trinity� to be described in the Quran, if its not even mentioned in the Bible itself. Your questioning is flawed with logic.

Excellent�!

Thanks for admitting that the word �trinity� does not appear in your book of faith.

Now�you need to acknowledge that while the word is not there�the concept still is�

So far so good with Quran, lets apply the same tests to your �Holy� Bible and see if it comes up with this merit. First of all, almost all Christian scholars, unanimously agree that the original teachings of Jesus have been lost. Hence, all they have now is �at most� first translation from the original. This necessarily implies that the knowledge about these translational errors is lost forever. All we read from NT is then based upon suspicion of these irrecoverable errors. It would be nice to see your point of view in this regard.

Islam 101 again�

Let us once again put forth the challenge for you to pick ANY portion of your Koran that you feel is completely devoid of Jewish and Christian influence.

By taking this challenge, you will see for yourself just how reliable the Biblical source material was for the authors who penned it �

Thnaks�

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Thanks for your reply�

I think you have totally forgotten about you duty of providing the reference or source of your translation. Kindly do that so that one may proceed with your replies. Without this, rest assure, your replies, as someone has mentioned already, are nothing but "gibberish".

I appreciate your concern for looking for a way out of this discourse by asserting ultimatums�however�I would at least hope that you would arrive at your own informed conclusions rather than riding the tailcoats of others opinions�

Furthermore�please tell us the specific Arabic words that you want exegeted�if you can�.that is�

Secondly, once again, go back and verify that if I ever used any other translation to prove my point. My sole source in those responses comes from nowhere but from your own provided translation. Hence you can't hide under the rhetorics of "popular" english translation.

No problem�.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=238& PN=1&TPN=9

Your posts and links are riddled with the usage of Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, & Shakir�.have you already forgotten�?

Please put forth some effort into your replies next time�

Thanks�