"FUTURE" THOUGHTS

Douggg: Hi Mr X,

I changed my mind.  You may call me islamispeace! 

Douggg: Regarding Ezekiel 38 and 39, I am assuming that Muslims consider the text valid - although they would not agree with my interpretation.   So Ezekiel 38 and 39 would be common text to both religions.   Is that a correct assumption that I am making?

Not at all.  Islam's position on the previous texts is clear: they were corrupted by human hands.  So, if we even have to determine what is truth and what is false, we would judge it by the Quran and Sunnah.

Douggg: Jesus gave prophecy after prophecy plus Revelation to John.   He also gave the parable of the fig tree.   Applying the understanding of that parable... May 14, 1948+70 years = May 14, 2018, not later than.    Not later than May 14,2018,
 Jesus will return to this earth.    Subtracting 7 years for the tribulation period under the Antichrist, May 14, 2018 - 7 = May 14, 2011.   No later than May 14, 2011, the Antichrist will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant with the Jews.   Just before then - whatever date it turns out to be - Gog/Magog will take place.
Meaning that Gog/Magog will take place not later than May 14, 2011.

Stop!  My sides are bursting from laughing so hard! 

Christians have been making these calculations for 2,000 years and they have always been wrong!  Silly Dougggie, what makes you think you have the keys to the future?  If Jesus did not eve know when the end would come, what makes you think you can predict the future?  We will see in 2010 or 2011 (now you are not so sure, huh?) whether your little "prophecy" comes true.  Of course, when it does not, and inshaAllah it will not, we will no doubt see you trying to do damage control much like William Miller in 1844, when Jesus missed his heavenly flight and failed to show up. 

Douggg: I didn't think it was worthy of a response.  

Well, of course you didn't!  Anything you don't have an answer to is not worthy of a response!

Douggg: Recall what Jesus said of the Roman officer who sought Jesus's help in healing his servant?

Ugh.  Something stinks here!  Oh, I know.  It's the red herring you just dropped.  What Jesus may have said to the Roman does not change what he may have said to the woman he referred to as a dog just because she was a gentile.  Or was Jesus reneging on his racist attitudes?  Did he reform?

Douggg: An antichrist is someone who denies the Father and Son.

Wrong again, Dougggie!  An antichrist is someone who pretends to be something they are not.  Its another word for an impostor (dajjal in Arabic).  Its someone who claims to speak for the Messiah, or in his name, or claims to be the Messiah but in fact is just a liar.  The true Messiah never claimed divinity.  So therefore, those who claim he did are antichrists.  Paul was an antichrist in that way. 

Douggg: Islam is very much antichrist, and exhibits the spirit of Antichrist.   Many Christians think that the Muslim Mahdi will be the Antichrist.  However, I do not.  I just don't think that the Muslim end times prophecies will play out.

Nope.  It exhibits the spirit of everything that is Godly and just.  It exhibits the spirit of tawhid and iman, like Jesus, like Moses, like Abraham and of course like Muhammad (may peace be upon them all).

Douggg: Oh yeah, sure, that's why your body is not going to grow old and die.

What on earth does that have to do with anything? 

Douggg: I don't know how the sin nature is contained in Adam's flesh - just that it is.

Very convenient. 

Douggg:   What do you think that means?   God does not create each of our bodies from scratch like He did with Adam.   We are Adam's flesh, continued down through time. 

Adam was an individual.  So am I and so are you.  The actions he committed were his own, not ours.  We may be related by blood, but that does not mean that just because he sinned, somehow sin permeated all of us.  That is just absurd.  Sin is not some physical force.  It is simply a word to represent evil deeds, bad actions.  That's all.  It is not present in your genes.  The color of your eyes, your hair and your skin is what is present in your genes.  Even despite these differences, because we all come from Adam, Islam says that we are all one and the same, regardless of gender, race or ethnicity.  The only difference is that we are all individuals, born with a clean slate and capable of making our own choices.

Douggg: I did answer your question, but you did not like it.  The reason Jesus was crucified was to draw all men to him.  Jesus himself said so.   He also said, in John 3....

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

A person must be familiar with the episode of the brazen serpent in the Tanach to understand the significance, as to why God chose the way of the cross as the means of Jesus's death.

This is absurd!  Was crucifixion the only way to "draw all men to him"?  Wouldn't being eaten by lions have the same effect?  Or simply bashing himself on the head several times in front of a large crowd?  And since when did the whole world at the time witness his death? 

Douggg: That is a silly waste of my time argument.

No, its something you don't have an answer to! 

Jesus' entire mission rested on the people who condemned him and wanted to kill him.  That means the Pharisees, the Romans, all of them, ensured that his mission to die for all of us, including the Pharisees and Romans themselves, would succeed.  Therefore, they should be considered heroes since their actions saved us all.  This is air-tight logic, which you simply cannot refute and so claim that it "is a silly waste of my time".

Douggg: I would say that Islam is the source of all the problems in the middle east.

Once Islam is destroyed, the rest of the world will rejoice. 

No, its clowns like you who are the problem.  Your self-righteousness has caused tremendous suffering in the world.  Christianity is responsible for more atrocities than any other religion/ideology/movement in the world.  It has betrayed Jesus and it has betrayed God.

Douggg: btw, I don't think the borne again Christians will be around to see Islam destroyed upon the mountains and valleys in Israel because of the rapture.   Of course if the borne-again Christians were raptured out of this world, that might give the Muslim countries the green light to attack Israel, since the U.S. 's support of Israel comes primarily from the borne-again Christians.

Make sure you don't miss your heavenly taxi!  Boy, will you look silly if you do!

This reminds of a Simpsons episode.  Homer thinks the rapture is coming.  So he goes on the streets to warn people.  "God loves you," he proclaimed.  "He's gonna kill you!"  I laughed so hard.  I am laughing right now just thinking about it.   

When your "little disappointment" comes to pass, and believe me it will inshaAllah, I think you will feel even sillier than the Millerites.  It's in those times when you must realize the error of your ways and come to the true path.  You can do it, Dougggie!  I believe in you!

Edited by islamispeace - 15 July 2009 at 8:03pm

islamispeace wrote: Douggg: Regarding Ezekiel 38 and 39, I am assuming that Muslims consider the text valid - although they would not agree with my interpretation.   So Ezekiel 38 and 39 would be common text to both religions.   Is that a correct assumption that I am making? Not at all.  Islam's position on the previous texts is clear: they were corrupted by human hands.  So, if we even have to determine what is truth and what is false, we would judge it by the Quran and Sunnah.

So what specifically are you saying is corrupted in the KJV Ezekiel 38 and 39?

Douggg: Jesus gave prophecy after prophecy plus Revelation to John.   He also gave the parable of the fig tree.   Applying the understanding of that parable... May 14, 1948+70 years = May 14, 2018, not later than.    Not later than May 14,2018,  Jesus will return to this earth.    Subtracting 7 years for the tribulation period under the Antichrist, May 14, 2018 - 7 = May 14, 2011.   No later than May 14, 2011, the Antichrist will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant with the Jews.   Just before then - whatever date it turns out to be - Gog/Magog will take place. Meaning that Gog/Magog will take place not later than May 14, 2011. Christians have been making these calculations for 2,000 years and they have always been wrong!  Silly Dougggie, what makes you think you have the keys to the future?  If Jesus did not eve know when the end would come, what makes you think you can predict the future?  We will see in 2010 or 2011 (now you are not so sure, huh?) whether your little "prophecy" comes true.  Of course, when it does not, and inshaAllah it will not, we will no doubt see you trying to do damage control much like William Miller in 1844, when Jesus missed his heavenly flight and failed to show up.

X, I don't disagree with you that historically there have been many who placed Jesus's coming at different dates - but none of those are based up "after the fact" of Israel having become a nation again, before 1948.  So, you won't find anyone from before 1948 making calculations based on the fact that Israel had actually become a nation again.  

Douggg: Oh yeah, sure, that's why your body is not going to grow old and die. What on earth does that have to do with anything?

It shows that you, as well as all who are of Adam's flesh, have inherited the penalty of sin, which is death...even before you committed a single sin. 

Adam was an individual.  So am I and so are you.  The actions he committed were his own, not ours.  We may be related by blood, but that does not mean that just because he sinned, somehow sin permeated all of us.  That is just absurd.  Sin is not some physical force.

Sin affects the physical as well as the spiritual.   Sin entered the world when Adam disobeyed.   It affected the animals as well.   So they die.  

You and I are related to Adam more that just by blood.  Our bodies are his actual flesh.

Douggg: I did answer your question, but you did not like it.  The reason Jesus was crucified was to draw all men to him.  Jesus himself said so.   He also said, in John 3.... 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. A person must be familiar with the episode of the brazen serpent in the Tanach to understand the significance, as to why God chose the way of the cross as the means of Jesus's death. This is absurd!  Was crucifixion the only way to "draw all men to him"?  Wouldn't being eaten by lions have the same effect?  Or simply bashing himself on the head several times in front of a large crowd?  And since when did the whole world at the time witness his death?

The decision on how Jesus would die was God's decision.  Why are you so against the way that God chose?

Jesus himself informed the disciples ahead of time how he would die.  That Jesus was crucified meant that his death was witnessed by all.    John the baptist at the beginning of Jesus's public minsitry, proclaimed Jesus as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world".    Jesus's death on the cross coincided with passover sacrifice of the lambs.   During the passover coming out of Egypt, death passed over those who's dwelling was marked by the blood. 

There are Christian crosses displayed all over the world.   Who doesn't know what those crosses symbolize?    And who died upon it.

Who is it that would benefit from the lie that Jesus did not die on the cross?    Satan, of course.   Stop and think.   Mohamed did not receive a vision from Gabriel, but from Satan.    Satan wants to keep those crosses from being seen.

Satan also wants to denigrate the cross, by people wearing it soley for the purpose of jewelry.

Satan's method of operation to destroy men's souls, by the power of sin, was ended by Jesus's death on the cross and His resurrection.

Who benefit's from Jesus's death and resurrection?  The human race.    The entire human race was redeemed because of the unmerited gift of God.   The only requirement is a person believe it and receive it.

Doug L.

Edited by Douggg - 16 July 2009 at 2:50pm

Saladin wrote: btw, I don't think the borne again Christians will be around to see Islam destroyed upon the mountains and valleys in Israel because of the rapture.   Of course if the borne-again Christians were raptured out of this world, that might give the Muslim countries the green light to attack Israel, since the U.S. 's support of Israel comes primarily from the borne-again Christians. I'm starting to think the rapture is gonna be a good event....... the time war mongering loonies get busted out of this world we can hope for some peace.

Douggg: So what specifically are you saying is corrupted in the KJV Ezekiel 38 and 39?

Well for one thing, this obsession with Israel being the virtual center of everything.  Its all about Israel and the Jews and to hell with everybody else.  This is not what I would expect from a God who is just and fair; this preference for one race over all others, as if they are superior in some way. 

Douggg: X, I don't disagree with you that historically there have been many who placed Jesus's coming at different dates - but none of those are based up "after the fact" of Israel having become a nation again, before 1948.  So, you won't find anyone from before 1948 making calculations based on the fact that Israel had actually become a nation again. 

You may call me islamispeace, please. 

So, you have all the answers, huh?  Why didn't those people try to calculate when Israel would become a nation again, first?  Especially, if it was so central to the end times prophecies? 

Douggg: It shows that you, as well as all who are of Adam's flesh, have inherited the penalty of sin, which is death...even before you committed a single sin. 

More nonsense.  I was born with a clean slate, innocent and pure.  So were you.  So was Adam.  I became a sinner only through my own actions.  So did you.  So did Adam.

What happens when a baby dies in infancy?  How can it be saved?  After all, you say it was born a sinner (such injustice is not becoming of the majesty of God!)?

Douggg:  Sin affects the physical as well as the spiritual.   Sin entered the world when Adam disobeyed.

This is absurd!  Like I said, sin is not some physical entity you can touch and hold.  If I were to steal, that would be sin, but it does not affect me physically.  Its not like I get a tumor from stealing.

Douggg: It affected the animals as well.   So they die.

Oh for the love of...I have heard some real nonsense, but the nonsense coming from you is beyond anything else.  What do the animals have to do with all this? 

Are you saying plants die also because of the sin of Adam? 

Douggg: You and I are related to Adam more that just by blood.  Our bodies are his actual flesh.

Even if this was somehow true, its not like sin infected him like a disease, like AIDS.  His sin was his own. 

Douggg:  The decision on how Jesus would die was God's decision.  Why are you so against the way that God chose?

I am not against God's will.  I am against the will of those who would try to subvert his will!  People like you!

In other words, you have no idea on how to answer my question.

Douggg: Jesus himself informed the disciples ahead of time how he would die.  That Jesus was crucified meant that his death was witnessed by all.    John the baptist at the beginning of Jesus's public minsitry, proclaimed Jesus as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world".    Jesus's death on the cross coincided with passover sacrifice of the lambs.   During the passover coming out of Egypt, death passed over those who's dwelling was marked by the blood.

All of this is irrelevant.  I already know all this.  What I want to know is the logic behind it, if any.

Douggg: There are Christian crosses displayed all over the world.   Who doesn't know what those crosses symbolize?    And who died upon it.

He could have simply been crushed by a rock, and then that rock would become the symbol of Christianity.  Do you see the point I am making?  It's not "rocket science", Dougggie!

You still have not answered my other questions!  I am just going to keep bringing them up until you do:

Jesus' entire mission rested on the people who condemned him and wanted to kill him.  That means the Pharisees, the Romans, all of them, ensured that his mission to die for all of us, including the Pharisees and Romans themselves, would succeed.  Therefore, they should be considered heroes since their actions saved us all.  This is air-tight logic, which you simply cannot refute and so claim that it "is a silly waste of my time".

At least try and refute this, Dougggie.  Surely, your 40 some-odd years of studying the Bible should bring some answers.

Douggg: Who is it that would benefit from the lie that Jesus did not die on the cross?    Satan, of course.   Stop and think.   Mohamed did not receive a vision from Gabriel, but from Satan.    Satan wants to keep those crosses from being seen.

Nice.  Now you are dropping non-sequiturs.  And these stinks just as worse as the red herrings! 

Who benefited from the fact that Jesus was saved?  Jesus himself for one.  Also, the believers.  It was proof to them of God's awesome might and power.  He left the unbelievers impotent and helpless. 

Now, who benefits from the lie that Jesus died for our sins?  No one really.  Satan certainly benefited since he was able to get billions of people to worship a mere man because of some myth that his death ensures that we get "saved".

Douggg: Who benefit's from Jesus's death and resurrection?  The human race.    The entire human race was redeemed because of the unmerited gift of God.   The only requirement is a person believe it and receive it.

No one benefits if it actually happened.  All that would have happened is that the blood of an innocent man was spilled.  But alhamdulillah, it did not happen!  Allah's power triumphed over Satan and his cronies.