Tolerance

Natassia wrote: You said there is no forced conversion in Islam. But I must object to that statement. There seems to be plenty of examples of forced conversion/submission

Natassia wrote: You're right, I guess. Forced conversions don't happen anymore. Just several hundred years ago. And those perpetrators weren't really Muslims anyway.

Muslims and forced conversions? Apart from a particular �incident� you picked up in a particular newpaper, or *ahem* Fox News, can you really back up your claim that Muslims have been forcible converting people all this time?

India:

India today is a predominantly HINDU country (pagans), with various other religious communities existing there, including, Sikhs, Parsis, Zoroastrians, Jains, Christians, Jews. Muslims have ruled India for CENTURIES. Islam officially came to India in 712 CE, ..many Muslim dynasities followed - first the Delhi Sutalanate, and then the Mughals. Infact during Mughal Rule, various Hindu states actually flourished. (Vijayanagaras, Marathas, Rajputs). The Muslim rulers had CENTURIES to �forcibly convert� the nonmuslim majority in India. They didnt. Which is why India still is home to a multitude of religious beliefs.

Middle East:

Jews have lived in the ME for thousands of years, most of the time UNDER Muslim Rule. (Also Christians & Zoroastrians) Most of the Jews that settled in the Middle East were actually fleeing from Byzantinian persectution, to a safer haven � Muslim rule. Where they were welcomed and provided security. Approximately 1million Jews lived in Arabia � most of which migrated later to Israel, USA etc for better financial prospects. They spoke Arabic and were known as �Arab Jews�. How did these �Arab Jews� survive in Arabia until now? Why weren�t they �forcibly converted� by Muslim Rulers? Interestingly, the only Jewish Holocaust that we know of, occurred when Muslims were NOT in power, and by Christians & Athiests. Holocausts are even worse than �forced conversions� � which you claim Muslims like to indulge in.

Ottoman Empire:

At one time, almost half of the known world was under muslim rule. Areas under Muslim rule were: Southeast Europe, Western Asia, North Africa. I cant even name all the countries today that were once under Muslim rule. Muslims armies advanced to countries such as Hungary, Transylvania. . .how many muslims live there today? How many were forcible converted? During that period, Jews were actually fleeing to Muslim controlled areas � in an effort to escape Christian persecution. Spain; how many forcibly converted muslims live in Spain today? Spain was once the centre of Islamic civilisation.

Coptic Christians in Egypt:

Coptic Christians are some of the earliest Christians in the world today, who embraced Christianity around the 1st century. They represent 10-20% of the Egyptian Population today � Egypt has been under Muslim rule for ages, why do these Coptic Christians still exist? Why were they not forcibly converted? They have been living peacefully, unhindered, unconverted for centuries�

Indonesia is the largest muslim country in the world today by population. Which Muslim army advanced into Indonesia to forcibly convert them?


The fundamental principle in �Islamic conversions� is Niyyah i.e. Intention. A person needs to have the intention to convert in their heart. Which is why the Islamic System does not recognize or support �Forced Conversions�. This is why Muslim preachers do not and cannot use �financial or material inducement� to convert people � unlike Christian missionaries who exploit human poverty and use the promise of better financial prospects to lure ignorant, poorer masses, so they can report numbers back to church.

What does the Qur�an have to say on forcible conversions?

Allah says: �So if they dispute with you, say �I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me.� And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: �Do you also submit yourselves?� If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in Allah�s sight are all of His servants.� [S�rah �l `Imr�n: 20]

�Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.� [S�rah al-Baqarah: 256]

�If it had been your Lord�s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?� [S�rah Y�nus: 99]

�The Messenger�s duty is but to proclaim the Message.� [S�rah al-M�idah: 99]

� (not compel or foricibly convert people)

Bottom-Line: Forcible Conversions are against the essence of Islam and go against its teachings. Qur�an proves it, History proves it.


Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/)

. . . who is forcibly coverting these nonmuslims today? Maybe the reason is not forcible conversions � but the fact that, how Allah puts it in the Qur�an: �Truth stands out from falsehood� (Baqarah 256)



Edited by Chrysalis - 24 August 2009 at 11:13am

Natassia wrote: Akhe Abdullah wrote: Natassia you say:you refer to the Islamic writings to keep things in context and explain the true meanings.But you clearly don't believe in it true meanings do you? � No, I don't.� Isn't that fascinating?� I understand the "clear" message of the Quran.� I understand the context.� I understand the five pillars of faith, the shahadah, "science of hadith," etc. � I get it. � I just don't believe in it. � I wonder...would you blame that on pride, the shaitan, or Allah himself?

It doesnt matter if you believe in it, since you know this and understand as you say you can be held accountable.

Wa'alaikum salaam Akhe. Nice to be back, been away for some time... hope you keep me in your duas. :)

Natassia wrote: � I've noticed that unless a news report comes from an Islamic source, it is easily disregarded by Muslims as false.�

Unless we muslims here are quoting our own islamic texts - we seldom use 'muslim' sources to prove ourselves. All the historical facts about the spread of islam mentioned above - can be found on nonmuslim sites and sources.

Did u read the CNN article about Islam bieng the fastest growing religion in the world? Non-muslim source.
If Islam had been forcibly converting people - the rise in muslim conversions would have fallen to minimal in the later centuries. Why is Islam STILL spreading so quickly?
Forcible conversions? or maybe there IS something in Islam that appeals to the masses. "and truth shall stand out from falsehood"

Can you explain how Pakistan came into existence?

You can google it up later - fairly easy to find. I fail to understand how the creation of Pakistan proves your point of 'forced conversions'. There were some muslims in India who chose to collect in muslim majority areas and form thier own seperate government because they feared persecution by the Hindu majority... how does that in anyway relate to forced conversions?

Excuse me, but what gave the Muslims the right to rule the entire Middle East?� What gave them the right to invade and conquer North Africa and parts of Europe?�

The same right that the portugese, british, americans, french, christian armies etc etc had to colonise, and build thier empires. It was the norm of the day. It happened.

In case you missed the initial crux of the discussion - you were trying to prove how muslims have been forcibly converting people all this time - or 'most of the time' however you wanna twist that. We are not discussing the ethics/moralities of empire-building. If you want to discuss that, thats a seperate issue entirely, and not one that pertains to 'islam' as such.

Bottomline: Had muslims been forcibly converting people - all the areas they ruled would be 'forcibly' muslim by now.

And would you like to discuss the treatment of Yemeni Jews?�

Interesting. You say 'Yemeni' Jews. Just because (assuming for the heck of it, that this is true.) 'Yemeni' Jews were mistreated in some place at some time does not prove that Muslims were forcible converting people. Jews under Islam is a golden part of history and an amazing one at that. Jewish historians themselves have sung praises of Muslim empire and rulers for protecting them from christian persecution. (See Sallahuddin Ayyubi.) Had Muslims not harbored those fleeing Jews I'm sure the Jewish population and culture that we know today would have suffered a huge blow.

The Jews have not been persecuted more in history than by christians and nonmuslims. Muslims and Jews have shared a pretty civilized past. (beyond 1940s)

Leon Poliakov a Jewish historian who writes on anti-semitism and the holocaust speaks highly of how the Jews were treated under Muslim rule...

I guess you haven't been reading the news lately.� Google: "Persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt"

I'm sure the coptic christians have had thier bad days, like anyother community.

Fact remains - they have survived perfectly fine without bieng forcibly converted by thier muslim rulers for centuries...

Indonesia is not ruled by shariah law.

So?

The point was - no muslim army ever advanced to Indonesia - how did the majority become Muslim?

Bottomline: alleged 'forced conversions' by Muslims as a whole is simply a classic e.g of nonmuslim ignorance & phobia towards islam and muslims. - with no actual basis.

Had Muslims been 'forcibly converting' the oh-so-poor victimised nonmuslims all along - Half the world today would be Muslim, and Islam would not be the fastest growing religion today...

Ramadhan Mubarak everyone...






Edited by Chrysalis - 21 August 2009 at 10:04am