Who wrote Quran? |
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Yusuf.
Senior Member Joined: 02 July 2001 Location: far from home Status: Offline Points: 2385 |
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In English, perhaps. The Arabic word "kaatib" can be translated as both "scribe" and "writer" in English. Thus the nonsense over the "recent" introduction of the term scribe is only a misunderstanding based upon ignorance of Arabic. So we have a four step delusion: 1. Failure to understand that "scribe" and "writer" in Arabic are in fact the same word. 2. Implying that the change in English texts from one term to the other implies a revisionist hand which, as the Arabic texts all demonstrate, does not exist. 3. Equating the English term "writer" with "author." 4. Assuming that such an equation exists in Arabic. A very weak attempt at deception. |
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Yusuf
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beloved
Senior Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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I could site you a numerous list of other self-acclaimed "Islamic"
websites that would strongly support your argument and add many more.
Fortunately, all these websites, including those you have quoted have
nothing to do with Islam other than trying to establish deviant
teachings and later attribute them to the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Mockba brother, I just said the same, "Though I have quoted these from the internet (which I feel are not reliable), I can even quote from the books available in the market on this subject." http://www.islamicity.com/education/understandingislamandm uslims/default.asp?ContentLocation=/Education/UnderstandingI slamAndMuslims&CurrentPageID=12&Top=&Bottom=& ;Right=&Left=&SideBarWidth=&RightWidth=&Left Width=&SideBarLocation=&Style=&CatID=&Destin ation=/Education/UnderstandingIslamAndMuslims/12.asp The Quran is a record of the exact words revealed by God through the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad. It was memorized by Muhammad and then dictated to his Companions, and written down by scribes, who cross-checked it during his lifetime. Not one word of its 114 chapters, Suras, has been changed over the centuries, so that the Quran is in every detail the unique and miraculous text which was revealed to Muhammad fourteen centuries ago. This is from Islamicity.com. Is this a belief or something which has enough proof? That is what I was searching for. I want to know what reliable resources are available with us so that I can know more about Holy Quran. There is no requirement for someone like yourself educate members of this forum on authenticity of the Quran and methodology used in writing it down. I ain't educating anyone, I am just educating myself. I hope that I am also a member of this forum. It is indeed unfortunate that Bible did not retain its original content and evolved to contain blasphemy, and as such there is no need to compare it to the Quran. I had been insisting not to bring Holy Bible into our discussion. You started it and you conclude it by saying "as such there is no need to compare it to the Quran." |
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beloved
Senior Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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However, since you had been answered completely as far as your foremost
question was concerned without any logical arguments to contradict it,
hence, your later comments were without specifics.
Are you conscious? "answered completely"..."without any logical arguments to contradict it" He just gave some statements from a website. As Mockba said,"I could site you a numerous list of other self-acclaimed "Islamic" websites that would strongly support your argument and add many more." So, then you clarified that your questions were pertaining to scribes and not the writer, since we all know that the writer of Quran is Allah and Allah alone. It is in this context, I think, now you would be able to see the things matching up. So you want to sideline. Do you know what is meant by writer? When you say "the writer of Quran is Allah and Allah alone", what do you mean to say? If you say Allah wrote it, on what did he write? (illogical assumptions lead to illogical conclusions) Is a scribe not a writer? Does that mean Quran has no writer or writers? Then how come it exists now? To those websites which do not provide the names of the scribes, I think, its not logical to construe that none of the scribes existed. Isn't it? Its the deficiency of the websites and nothing else. Thank God! At last I got someone who can tell me the names of all the scribes who have written them. If "scibe" is a newly found word for you, what do you expect from us? Open up the dictionary and find the meaning yourself. I think its not a big deal. Isn't it? Thank you. But I did not say that its a newly found word. I said it was a newly found word when refering to his companions. You haven't provided any reference to your statement. Kindly do that to dissect it to reveal the truth. Thanks It was the site(or answer) you were also refering to when you said, "However, since you had been answered completely as far as your foremost question was concerned without any logical arguments to contradict it, hence, your later comments were without specifics." The "complete" answer (as you think) was from the Perspective magazine. Kindly distinguish between "writer" and the "scribe".
I can only say that this is totally a unsubstantiated statement despite clear evidence that there were many numorous scribes, some of whose names have also been shown on this forum, who wrote down the verses of Quran as they used to reveal to Prophet Mohammad. Among them Zayed ibn Thabit was the one who also presided the committee later on, which was formed for the duty of binding the Quran in the Book form later at the time of Hazrat Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam. We have clear evidence that there were many numorous scribes (as you say), then do we know who they are? From whom were the verses taken during "binding the Quran in the Book form"? That is what when I said, "We believe that Zayed Ibn Thabit has compiled it without any ambiguity believing in the verses 2:23, 10:38, 11:13, 17:88 etc which themselves form the part Zayed's compiled Quran. (Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)..)" If you find time please read all of my posts which will make it easy for me not to paraphrase myself again. |
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beloved
Senior Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Thank you Yusuf for your reply. Of course I don't know Arabic and I know basic English (I have to use a dictionary most of the time). |
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beloved
Senior Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Topic has been moved to a non-Muslim forum
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beloved
Senior Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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anyone answer please
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Deus
Senior Member Joined: 13 July 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 134 |
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I was hoping to contribute to this thread, but every question has already been answered (some more than once, too.) |
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Jazz
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 110 |
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Here are some articles that express some concerns and offers some comments about the origin of Quran. Quote:
Some highlights: �Ibn Umar al�Khattab explicitly admits, The Zamakh-shari also cited it in his book,
"al-Kash-Shaf� (part 3, page 518). And, if Muhammad died while these verses
were still recited who abrogated them? Did the domesticated animal abrogate
them? It is evident that this really did occur according to the witness of the
companions, Muslim scholars, and A�isha herself. The question which presents itself is, why
did not Muhammad give orders to collect the Qur�an? Why did not the angel
Gabriel suggest to him to do such an important task to avoid the disagreement, dispute,
and the fight which spread among the people?
Quote: Koran - The Word Of God? Here are some sahih ahadith that shed some light on the issue of origins of "revelations" found in Quran.
Sahih al-Bukari كتاب الصلاة (The Book of Prayer) No. 396 - Narrated 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab): My Lord agreed with me in three things: 1. I said,"O Allah's Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka'ba)". (2.125) 2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed. 3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (66.5).
Sahih al-Bukari (The Book of Exegesis of the Quraan) No. 4349 - Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):-- "Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128)
Sahih al-Bukari (The Book of Military Expeditions) When we wrote the Holy quran, I missed one of the Verses of Surat-al-Ahzab which I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting. Then we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. The Verse was:-- 'Among the Believers are men Who have been true to Their
Covenant with Allah, Of them, some have fulfilled Their obligations to Allah
(i.e. they have been Killed in Allah's Cause), And some of them are (still)
waiting" (33.23) So we wrote this in its place in the quran.
Sahih al-Bukari (The Book of Jihaad) Zaid bin Thabit said, "When the quran was compiled from
various written manuscripts, one of the Verses of Surat Al-Ahzab was missing
which I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting. I could not find it except with
Khuzaima bin Thabjt Al-Ansari, whose witness Allah's Apostle regarded as equal
to the witness of two men. And the Verse was:-- "Among the believers are
men who have been true to what they covenanted with Allah." (33.23)
Sahih al-Bukari (The Book of the Virtues of the Prophet and His Companions) No. 3267 - Narrated Anas: Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-'As and 'AbdurRahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham, and then they wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an in the form of book in several copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi persons. " If you differ with Zaid bin Thabit on any point of the quran, then write it in the language of Quraish, as the quran was revealed in their language." So they acted accordingly. (Said bin Thabit was an Ansari and not from Quraish ). ---------------------------------------------------------- -------Sahih al-Bukari (The Book of Military Expeditions) No. 3820 - Narrated Anas bin Malik : The Prophet invoked evil upon those (people) who
killed his companions at Bir Mauna for 30 days (in the morning prayer). He
invoked evil upon (tribes of) Ril, Lihyan and Usaiya who disobeyed Allah
and His Apostle. Allah revealed a quranic Verse to His Prophet regarding
those who had been killed, i.e. the Muslims killed at Bir Ma'una, and we
recited the Verse till later it was cancelled. (The
Verse was:) 'Inform our people that we have met our Lord, and He is pleased
with us, and we are pleased with Him." Sahih al-Bukari (The Book of Military Expeditions) No. 4116 - Narrated Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah: Ibn Abbas said, "When Allah's Apostle was on his deathbed and there were some men in the house, he said, 'Come near, I will write for you something after which you will not go astray.' Some of them ( i.e. his companions) said, 'Allah's Apostle is seriously ill and you have the (Holy) quran. Allah's Book is sufficient for us.' So the people in the house differed and started disputing. Some of them said, 'Give him writing material so that he may write for you something after which you will not go astray.' while the others said the other way round. So when their talk and differences increased, Allah's Apostle said, "Get up." Ibn Abbas used to say, "No doubt, it was very unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing for them that writing because of their differences and noise."
Sahih al-Bukari (The Book of Exegesis of the Quraan) No. 4208 - Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair: I said to 'Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: "Those of you who die and leave widows behind...without
turning them out." has been abrogated by another Verse. Why then
do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "Leave it (where it
is), O the son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the quran)
from its original position."
No. 4319 - Narrated Anas bin Malik: Abu Jahl said, "O Allah! If this (quran) is indeed the Truth from You, then rain down on us a shower of stones from the sky or bring on us a painful torment." So Allah revealed:-- "But Allah would not punish them while you were amongst them, nor He will punish them while they seek (Allah's) forgiveness..." (8.33) And why Allah should not punish them while they turn away (men) from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the Sacred Mosque of Mecca)..." (8.33-34)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Here is an interesting article from the Guardian about origins and preservation of Quran http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4048586,00. html
Edited by Jazz |
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