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The hate feeling manifestation
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 7:59pm
Wafa Sultan is a courageous woman and an inspiration to oppressed Muslim women in particular; but she is not a good debater, at least not in English.  (She may do better in her native language.)  I agree with much of what you said, Caringheart, but I have to admit that irritated me most was Sultan's combativeness and her constant interruptions, often for no particular purpose that I could see..
 
I did notice that Ibrahim failed to directly respond to many of the criticisms that were made against Islam.  Right at the outset, for instance, he dodges Sura 9:5 with a rambling statement that ends with "it's very easy to take those passages and conflate them into a general feeling that Islam is violent, and I would challenge that assertion."  Okay, so go ahead in challenge it!  But he never did.  That is the kind of thing that Sultan should have pressed him on, but she never did.  All in all, a disappointing performance on both sides.  (IMHO of course.)
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 7:59pm

(sorry, duplicate post)



Edited by Ron Webb - 24 August 2012 at 4:11am
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Points: 2991 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Wafa Sultan is a courageous woman and an inspiration to oppressed Muslim women in particular; but she is not a good debater, at least not in English.  (She may do better in her native language.)  I agree with much of what you said, Caringheart, but I have to admit that irritated me most was Sultan's combativeness and her constant interruptions, often for no particular purpose that I could see..
 
I did notice that Ibrahim failed to directly respond to many of the criticisms that were made against Islam.  Right at the outset, for instance, he dodges Sura 9:5 with a rambling statement that ends with "it's very easy to take those passages and conflate them into a general feeling that Islam is violent, and I would challenge that assertion."  Okay, so go ahead in challenge it!  But he never did.  That is the kind of thing that Sultan should have pressed him on, but she never did.  All in all, a disappointing performance on both sides.  (IMHO of course.)
 
"she is not a good debater..."
I would say that she is passionate... some would say 'emotional', but I can understand her passion.  This is not something that distracts me from her points, however it would some people.
 
"All in all, a disappointing performance on both sides"
I agree.
 
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nothing View Drop Down
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Points: 416 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nothing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

Both men treat Wafa condescendingly.  Yet, she is the one who has lived it.  She is the one who has lived under Islamic rule and knows what was taught under that rule.  She is one who knows the real, full history of Muhammad without denial, because it is her history, of her country.

Really? You are talking about Syria here right?.
I start have feeling it approaches the kind of "Forbidden love" the true story by Norma Khouri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Love_%28novel%29

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

I did notice that Ibrahim failed to directly respond to many of the criticisms that were made against Islam.  Right at the outset, for instance, he dodges Sura 9:5 with a rambling statement that ends with "it's very easy to take those passages and conflate them into a general feeling that Islam is violent, and I would challenge that assertion."  Okay, so go ahead in challenge it!  But he never did.(IMHO of course.)

He was right though considering there are verses 1-5 before it, and 6-13 after it as a context. Than there are 115 verses more right after verse 13. It is  irresponsible to isolate a verse to use it for attacking. But she is a psychiatrist so it must have been thought out thoroughly as the right thing to do.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 5:00pm
FYI nothing -- it was the moderator, not Sultan, who quoted sura 9:5.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Points: 2991 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 7:39pm
"He was right though considering there are verses 1-5 before it, and 6-13 after it as a context. Than there are 115 verses more right after verse 13. It is irresponsible to isolate a verse to use it for attacking. But she is a psychiatrist so it must have been thought out thoroughly as the right thing to do. "
 
I have read it.  The context changes nothing.  In fact it only adds to its treachery.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 8:18pm
As I understand it, the context of Sura 9:5 is a discussion of how to deal with enemies who have already agreed to a truce, and then proceed to break that truce.  Such people cannot be trusted and there is no point in trying to negotiate or accommodate.  IMHO it's a reasonable point of view.
 
As I've said before, I can defend most of what I find in the Quran.  It is the hadith that do not belong in a modern religion.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Points: 2991 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

As I understand it, the context of Sura 9:5 is a discussion of how to deal with enemies who have already agreed to a truce, and then proceed to break that truce.  Such people cannot be trusted and there is no point in trying to negotiate or accommodate.  IMHO it's a reasonable point of view.
 
As I've said before, I can defend most of what I find in the Quran.  It is the hadith that do not belong in a modern religion.


That's not how it reads to me at all.  It is an entirely slanderous passage about how no non-muslim can be trusted and that you only have to honor your treaties with them until the holy days are over.  Then you can treat them as the scum that they are.
That's how it reads to me.
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