Muslims in the West |
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b95000
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1328 |
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I find your opinion important Sasha - when I filter out the harshness, invective and generalizations. Of course I'm no perfect person and will never claim anything close to perfect knowledge.
I know the US image is poor in some quarters. But the US is willing to act and many nations and peoples are not right now. I have harsh words for such do nothing peoples and nations because it is their apathy that creates a vacuum into which the US must step. Just not acting against killers is no option, in my humble opinion. This is why I've been asking lately what Spain and France and Germany and Russia are doing for world peace? What are they doing on a daily basis? Criticizing the US is no answer to that question! We must start by discussing facts and realities...perhaps, this is not what you think I've been doing, but that is truly my desire. I respect and honor other peoples and nations and yet you also believe that my support for Bush, for instance rules out that reality. But I'm not Bush head, I will not give Bush nor any politician carte blanche and I think that while any US President has a good deal of power, they (and Bush) have much less power than many think they've got - that is true for the loyal opposition in the US as well - who often blame the president inordinately for failures and his supporters credit him inordinately for successes. But this is human nature - to have someone to rally behind or to villify.. Edited by b95000 |
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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. |
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Whisper
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4752 |
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But I'm not Bush head, I will not give Bush nor any politician carte blanche and I think that Bruce, even if you were I would have taken it as your absolute Right of self determination. Bush would have remained a sole US citizens� concern if he had not been caught in the acts of creating such a global scale mess.
His actions now concern everyone in the world because these are multiplying terrorism. The other day I watched an Indian sketch on the TV:
OBL and GWB meet at a secret location, both with beards, in similar garbs. After deep embraces, ahlan w�sehlan and all that, OBL hands him the highest award for promoting his cause!! None of us can ever be perfect. I have become so accustomed to my imperfections that I have now started to log them. We are now faced with perhaps the most interesting times of our lives. We need to become able to end this spiral of violence.
We won�t be able to do that unless and until we generate a situation in which we could discuss everything in a clear, open, honest manner � without any national or regional considerations and whatever. But the US is willing to act and many nations and peoples are not right now. I know where you are coming from, but action without wisdom always ends up in a far worse situation. Let�s face it action has created Iraq and, the whole region is sitting up to explode.
If we could solve matters by just killing the killers, all killings would have ended by now.
This problem is very deep rooted. It�s not just someone's desire to kill or anything like that. It stems from decades of active and passive oppression. It won�t go away unless and until we study its actual causes and do something to address those causes. We can�t just shoot it away.
My mission is exactly the same. I am becoming more active just because I have had the advantage of knowing both the sides of this great divide. The reality for a man in Paghman or Basra is not the same as it may be, say, for a New Yorker or for someone in Bradford. We have as yet not been able to find a Universal Template. I well know what my Muslim friends would say. Our Community will flash at least 19 ayaats form the Qur�an and tell us that there is no other way than the one he is penning down.
Perhaps even I may have reached that conclusion, but if we won�t allow the US to force a system on the world why would we allow our Muslim friends to force their favourite system on the same world? We have to chart the middle path. And, I promise, far sooner than we may think. |
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b95000
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1328 |
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Thanks for this post Sasha - many excellent thoughts - I must say this
is the most reasonable interchange we may have had yet. Now if
you'd just avoid calling me "theatre trash" - we'd get along much better!
"Let�s face it action has created Iraq and, the whole region is sitting up to explode." Not if people are willing to maintain their lives and sacrifice for principles of freedom and accountability and the rule of law (the writing of the Constitution is the chief current example of this.) This is a completely and utterly important cause - that of a Free Iraq and harbinger of a more free Middle East...Let Freedom in tandem with accountability have its results across the lands there and across the world...the purity and goodness of Islam that OBL claims to care about will be allowed to express itself within the context of true freedom with responsibility. Do you really think these things horrid and just want to focus on the 'powder keg' news? (May God bring peace and comfort and better days ahead to those that have lost family members and friends to extremists and worshipers of death..) Edited by b95000 |
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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. |
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Whisper
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4752 |
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Do you really think these things horrid and just want to focus on the 'powder keg' news? I don't think these things to be horrid at all. But you have to bear in mind that the world outside the US holds much less, if at all any, reason to believe your admin. I will consider Iraq free on the day it's free of foreign troops on its soil. We will consider Afghanistan again our home the day the ferengi depart from there. Right now (whatever reports you get or don't get) the situation on the ground has become very volatile. I am not discussing how it should be in ideal conditions or under one law or the other. Unless activists like you begin to understand and take peoples' perceptions into account, US will be left wondering why the rest world can't see what we see. Any miles of arguments in your own favour won't make an iota of a difference. Just a simple advice from a man who faces angry public each day of his life. |
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Whisper
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4752 |
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I will explain "theatre trash" in absolute sincerity. At times, we win just by accepting the other peoples' points of view. When we try to hardsell our admins already worn out spin I promise you it is seen as nothing more than theatre trash. Ask anyone on this board. Bruce, force does not always win. You force your point too much and almost to the take it or else point. At times, it sounds as if only the US point of view can be correct and the rest of the world can take it or lump it. Just for an instance take how the Gulf War I, Sell Man and the BCCI effected the Muslim world. This is a forum where we just exchange ideas. It's not a court where we sit and decide what's true and what's not true. My simple point was how people in the Islamic world came to look at the West since these incidences. You ran into the whole length on how Rush Die has admirers and how wrong it was to issue that fatwa and offer $3,000,000 on his head. This leaves the impression that you are either running away from the point in hand or trying to batter us with your view. This does not add any points to your basket. You just lose credibility by being off balance. Just tell me. Is there any harm in accepting that the Muslim perception was affected by these events? Do you really lose any points doing that? You say you wish to learn. How can you learn without really listening to how and why the Muslims feel, think or act the way they do? Just by hardselling your point and coverting the lot to your point of view? I have asked you often how you plan to sell something to us or educate the lot with your curricullum if your President fails to do that with all the resources at his command. I promise, it does help to think at times. |
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b95000
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1328 |
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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. |
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Whisper
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4752 |
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Thanks. Actually you are not seeking truth, but trying to spread some brand of your own Truth - the one you have in hand. Your entire admin is trying to do exactly the same and failing miserably at that. I wonder how far you would go bashing about, shooting left right and centre. Yet, Good Luck. |
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b95000
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1328 |
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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. |
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