After speaking to a good Muslim friend of mine and reading the fatwas on IslamWeb and IslamQA, it seems that the Abu Dawud hadith is genuine.

Muhammad discussed the situation of the non-Muslim at the time of death.
After describing how the soul of a Muslim will be returned to his body and he answers the questions posed by the angels correctly, his grave will be made wide, and he will smell the sweet fragrance of Paradise.

I would like to focus on the situation of the non-Muslim, or "infidel".

 He also mentioned the death of the infidel, saying: His spirit will be restored to his body, two angels will come to him, make him sit up and ask him: Who is your Lord? He will reply: Alas, alas! I do not know. They will ask him: What is your religion? He will reply: Alas, alas! I do not know. They will ask: Who was the man who was sent on a mission among you? He will reply: Alas, alas! I do not know. Then a crier will call from Heaven: He has lied, so spread a bed for him from Hell, clothe him from Hell, and open for him a door into Hell. Then some of its heat and pestilential wind will come to him, and his grave will be compressed, so that his ribs will be crushed together. Jabir's version adds: One who is blind and dumb will then be placed in charge of him, having a sledge-hammer such that if a mountain were struck with it, it would become dust. He will give him a blow with it which will be heard by everything between the east and the west except by men and jinn, and he will become dust. Then his spirit will be restored to him.  (Book #40, Hadith #4735)

The hadith states that the grave will compress and that the ribs of the non-Muslim will be crushed together. Evidently, this is happening not only to the soul, but also to the body. Fatwas on IslamQA and IslamWeb confirm that punishment (and reward) happens to both body and soul.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=4314

http://www.islamqa.info/en/10547

Also, the squeezing in the grave, if the fatwa below is accurately quoting Muhammad, happens to every single person. For non-Muslims, it continues indefinitely, until they are resurrected and judged, and then afterwards sent to hell.

All perfect praise be to Allaah, the Lord of the worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad , is His slave and messenger.

 

No one escapes the squeeze of the grave: young or old, wrongdoer or righteous, as indicated in many narrations.

On the authority of Ibn �Umar the Prophet , stated that even Sa�d Ibn Mu�aath to whose death the Throne of Allaah shook, and for whom the gates of the heavens opened and whose funeral was witnessed by 70 thousand angels, was squeezed by the grave and then released. [An-Nasaa'i] On the authority of Abu Ayyoob the Prophet , having buried a young boy said that had anyone escaped the squeeze of the grave, it would have been that boy. [At-Tabaraani] It is known that a young by does not sin (i.e. he is not accounted for what he does).

Ar-Ramli stated that no one escapes the squeeze of the grave, whether righteous or wrongdoer, but the difference between a Muslim and a non-Muslim is the continuity  of the squeeze - for a Muslim this happens only once when the person first enters the grave, then afterwards the grave loosens again, but a non-Muslim continually experiences this. Moreover, Muslims vary in their experience according to their deeds.

Allaah Knows best.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=18370

The problem I see with this teaching, is that obviously, a grave will not compress and crush the ribs of any corpse.

The photo below is of the enbalmed corpse of Vladimir Lenin, one of the most infamous atheists and mass murderers that the world had known in the 20th century. His grave is no more or less spacious than it was when he was embalmed. I am pretty certain his ribs have not been crushed in any way.



http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoTHXnQlSoVYADGiJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTFxcDFlZzIyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANkMWQzM2Q3ODVkMWExZDI2MzZiYjA3MThkZDcwNTA4YgRncG9zAzE-?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dlenin%2Bbody%26n%3D30%26ei%3Dutf-8%26y%3DSearch%26fr%3Dchr-greentree_ff%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D1&w=450&h=314&imgurl=www.tryonuniversity.com%2Flenin.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tryonuniversity.com%2Fnewsletter5.htm&size=25KB&name=%3Cb%3ELenin+%3C%2Fb%3Elies+in+state.&p=lenin+body&oid=d1d33d785d1a1d2636bb0718dd70508b&fr2=&fr=chr-greentree_ff&tt=%3Cb%3ELenin+%3C%2Fb%3Elies+in+state.&b=0&ni=128&no=1&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11eojcpr5&sigb=13l41f323&sigi=111kqitpt&.crumb=gh.FhJfSwp8&fr=chr-greentree_ff

The photo below is of the famous exhibit, "Body Worlds" The exhibits are comprised of skeletons of people who donated their bodies to science. They are very much dead, and I am pretty sure that not all of them were Muslim. We can see easily that the ribs of this skeleton are very much intact and have not interlocked. The grave isn't closing in on it either. The same is true of every other skeleton in this exhibit.



http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoTDxqglSmhcA8teJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTFzN2hyZGxoBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMyYmNjNTE3NmVjNzliMzQ0N2IzYzA0NDQxMzRkOGM0OARncG9zAzE2Ng--?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dbody%2Bworlds%2Bexhibit%26_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dbody%2Bworlds%2Bexhibit%26fr%3Dchr-greentree_ff%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D166&w=640&h=853&imgurl=www.popularmechanics.co.za%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F01%2FBody-Worlds-2.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.popularmechanics.co.za%2Fscience%2Fbody-worlds-and-the-cycle-of-life-exhibiting-real-human-bodies-in-cape-town%2F&size=25.4KB&name=%3Cb%3EBODY+WORLDS+%3C%2Fb%3E%26+The+Cycle+of+Life+%E2%80%93+exhibiting+real+human+bodies+in+...&p=body+worlds+exhibit&oid=2bcc5176ec79b3447b3c0444134d8c48&fr2=&fr=chr-greentree_ff&tt=%3Cb%3EBODY+WORLDS+%3C%2Fb%3E%26+The+Cycle+of+Life+%E2%80%93+exhibiting+real+human+bodies+in+...&b=151&ni=128&no=166&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=13mh82oq0&sigb=14gic42g1&sigi=12772e881&.crumb=gh.FhJfSwp8&fr=chr-greentree_ff

It is not true that after death, the grave of a non-Muslim narrows in and squeezes him/her until the ribs interlock.

What would be the thoughts of Muslims on this?


Edited by TG12345 - 12 August 2013 at 8:58pm

nothing wrote: When I finished the Qur'an reading first time I noticed that the very famous punishment of the grave is absent. I asked few people online as well as in person to point it out where it is just in case I missed it. But so far it is hadith origin. There is only one possible candidate, it is somewhere in Chapter 23 I think. Salaam.

Alaikum Salaam, and thank you for the response.

I can see why the Quran's author would leave this teaching absent. It is completely false, and this is very to prove.

However, if according to the Quran, Muhammad is God's prophet and his teachings are from God, when he said such things it is obvious God did not guide him to say that. So where was he getting it from?

islamispeace wrote: The hadith is referring to Barzakh, which is the state of existence in between the earthly life and the afterlife.  The physical rules of earthly existence do not apply.  Therefore, even if a body was cremated, it would still suffer the punishment.  As IslamWeb points out in another fatwa: "It should be emphasized that the torture of the grave refers to that of Barzakh. Therefore, every deceased person that deserves to be punished, will indeed experience this except for those whom Allaah The Almighty forgives. This takes place regardless of whether or not he is buried. Even if a person were eaten by carnivorous animals or burned to ashes and thrown into the air or drowned in the sea, both his soul and body will experience the punishment in the same way as the person who is buried." http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=4314 As another Islamic website states: "To us it appears as though nothing is happening to the body, but in the life of Al-Barzakh the grave is being compressed or widened and the body is being tormented or furnished in the clothes from Paradise, and so on and so forth." http://www.iris.org.nz/death_barzakh.php Hence, the argument that we cannot physically observe the ribs of a corpse being compressed is at best childish, since we are talking about a different state of existence altogether.  It is a matter of the unseen (ghaib).  Furthermore, it is obvious to anyone that a human body generally decays in the grave, leaving only bones and sometimes even less and that graves do not expand or compress.  That is not rocket science!  But, it again needs to be pointed out that what we are observing is with regards to this life, not the Barzakh.

Assalamu Alaikum, Islamispeace.

The Islamweb fatwa you cited does not state that physical rules to not apply to the body. It states that a person will experience the torment of the grave regardless if s/he is buried or cremated or eaten. Just because a body is cremated or ends up in the belly (and consequently excretement) of a hyaena does not mean it is not in the earth.

IRIS states that the living and dead are in a separate world, but states very clearly that their bodies are both being rewarded and punished in the grave, even if we can't see this happening.

Whilst there have been many theories posed as to where the souls of the people in Al-Barzakh are, the following points are those based on authentic evidence from the Qur'an and the Sunnah (practices and sayings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)).

In the case of the pious believers (as opposed to the disobedient Muslims), their souls are in Paradise and their bodies are in the grave.  In this way the person is able to experience the most pleasure since the soul experiences the incomparable bliss of paradise, whilst the body is also experiencing pleasure in the grave through things such as smelling the fragrance of Paradise, sleeping the sleep of a bridegroom and having a wide and spacious grave.  Sometimes however, the soul of the pious believer is connected with the body in the grave so that it they experience some pleasure together. The souls of the pious believers are free to roam and communicate with the souls of other pious believers in Al-Barzakh.

In the case of the disbelievers, the soul and the body are both confined to the grave and it is there that both the body and the soul undergo the torment of the grave commensurate with the sins they committed in the previous life.

http://www.iris.org.nz/death_barzakh.php

Also, notice that the hadith refers to not only the ribs of the corpse being squeezed together, but the grave itself compressing and widening. Does the grave enter into the other existence also?

Also, if the body is in a different existence, what would be the point of the soul returning to it, while it is in the grave?

Finally, in this hadith, Muhammad mentioned the body being put in the grave, and the grave being widened. If "the grave" is somehow part of a different dimension, does that mean that the companions are lowering the body into a different world also?

(57) Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "When (Allah's) slave is put in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their footsteps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask, 'What did you use to say about this man (i.e. Muhammad)?' The faithful Believer will say, 'I testify that he is Allah's slave and His Apostle.' Then they will say to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell Fire; Allah has given you a place in Paradise instead of it.' So he will see both his places." (Qatada said, "We were informed that his grave would be made spacious." Then Qatada went back to the narration of Anas who said;) Whereas a hypocrite or a non-believer will be asked, "What did you use to say about this man." He will reply, "I do not know; but I used to say what the people used to say." So they will say to him, "Neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Quran)." Then he will be hit with iron hammers once, that he will send such a cry as everything near to him will hear, except Jinns and human beings. (See Hadith No. 422).  (Book #23, Hadith #456)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=grave&book=&translator=1&search=1&search_word=all&start=50&records_display=10

Lastly, it is interesting to notice that both articles on Islamweb and IRIS that you cited, when discussing the issues we are debating, do not quote Muhammad. The article on IRIS does not quote him, or even any scholar, for that matter.

The article on IslamWeb quotes a scholar who lived in the 13th century, who said that the body is punished or rewarded whether or not it was buried. Nothing there about the body not being physically punished.

Muhammad stated clearly that the grave of the disbeliever will become compressed and that his ribs will come together. He stated that this, and other tortures, will happen after the soul returns to the body.

I would be curious to see a hadith from Muhammad stating that when the body in the grave that is being tormented, is being tormented in another world or dimension. I only have access to Sunan Abu Dawud, Bukhari, Muslim and Malik's Muwatta. I searched them all, and was unable to find anything. Interestingly, I was also unable to find the word "barzakh".

If you could provide me any evidence from Muhammad's words that the bodies being tormented in the grave are being tormented in a different world or dimension, I would be grateful.

Based on what I have seen of his words, he stated that the graves of believers and unbelievers will expand or compress, and that the ribs of the unbelievers will be crushed. He also made it very clear that all this will happen after the soul is returned to the body. There is no mention whatsoever of the body not being physically subjected to the torments or of being in a "different state of existence". I see only articles by scholars who say this, scholars who live in the 20th century and are not quoting Muhammad, but other scholars who lived centuries after him.

Lastly, you wrote:

Furthermore, it is obvious to anyone that a human body generally decays in the grave, leaving only bones and sometimes even less and that graves do not expand or compress.

I am glad you also see that graves do not expand or compress. We have nothing from Muhammad's teachings suggesting he did not believe this, and everything suggesting that he did.

However, your statement raised another interesting topic. You said that the human body generally decays in the grave, leaving only bones and sometimes even less. This is an interesting observation, because Muhammad stated there is a part of the body that will never decay, namely, the spinal chord. Allegedly, from it, God will reconstitute the person's body on the day of judgement.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Between the two blowiings of the trumpet (there would be an interval of forty). They said: Abu Huraira, do you mean forty days? He said: I cannot say anything. They said: Do you mean fortv months? He said: I cannot say anything They said: Do you mean forty years? He said: I cannot say anything. Then Allah would cause the water to, descend from the sky and they (people) will sprout like vegetable The only thing in a man which would not decay would be one bone (spinal chord) from which the whole frame would be reconstituted on the Day of Resurrection. 

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as say- ing: The earth would consume every son of Adam except his spinal chord from which his body would be reconstituted (on the Day of Resurrection).  

 Abu Huraira reported so many ahadith from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and amongst these one was this that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: There is a bone in the human being which the earth would never consume and it is from this that new bodies would be reconstituted (on the Day of Resurrection). They said: Allah's Messenger, which bone is that? Thereupon he said: It is the spinal bone.

http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=041&translator=2&start=172&number=7052
Interestingly, some of the hadiths use the term "tail bone" and others "spinal chord". I am going to make the assumption that what is being referred to is the coccyx, as many Muslim sites are saying this to be the case. According to Muhammad, every dead person is decayed by the earth, but what remains is her/her tailbone.

Muhammad stated that when every son of Adam (or person) dies, the earth will dissolve everything of the body but the tailbone. The tailbone is one of the bones in the human body that is least likely to dissolve.  The website "Quran and Science" does a great job pointing this out.
http://quranandscience.com/sunnah-a-science/123--the-coccyx.html

It claims that the coccyx does not get dissolved or eaten away by the earth. Often, it remains when all other parts of the body have been dissolved/acidified.

However, at other times, it certainly doesn't.

We know that in the sea, whale skeletons are eaten by worms, who dissolve them using acids.

The wispy worms may significantly speed up the whales� decomposition, Katz said. Researchers previously thought it took decades for a skeleton to break down in the ocean, she said, but the worms consume it in less than a decade.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/may/02/tp-study-bone-worms-use-acid-to-dissolve-whale/

Obviously, if this happens to a whale skeleton at sea, it also happens to human skeletons. The sons of Adam who drowned in the sea will not have spinal chords from which their bodies will be reconstituted.

If we want to examine bodies that are buried in the earth, we will also see that often the whole skeleton, not only the spinal chord, is eaten away.

The ship at Sutton Hoo is believed to have contained a body of a king, who was buried sometime in the Middle Ages. There was left nothing of either his body or skeleton, because the acidic acid dissolved all of it.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/articles/w/who_was_buried_at_sutton_hoo.aspx

No trace of a body was found during the 1939 excavation of the Sutton Hoo ship-burial.

Analyses of soil samples for residual phosphate (a chemical left behind when a human or animal body has completely decayed away), taken in 1967 during the British Museum's excavations, support the idea that a body was originally placed in the burial chamber, but that this had totally decayed in the highly acidic conditions at the bottom of the ship.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/articles/w/who_was_buried_at_sutton_hoo.aspx

In 2011, the remains of a young boy who died on the Titanic and was subsequently buried, were exhumed so he could be recognized. He was initially incorrectly identified as being Finnish. No spinal chord remained, but instead there was a fragment of an armbone, and teeth.

Following exhumation of the grave in 2001, which produced in a 2.4-inch-long fragment of an arm bone and three teeth, Parr and colleagues concluded that the child was Eino Viljami Panula, a 13-month-old Finnish infant who drowned with his parents in the disaster.

http://news.discovery.com/history/titanic-unknown-child-identified-110426.htm

Clearly, Muhammad's claim that the earth dissolves everyone and leaves only the spinal bone is not true.

Sorry for the extremely long post. Am looking forward to reading your answers and the answers of others if they choose to jump in.

Allahma3k. Blessed be His Name.


Edited by TG12345 - 17 August 2013 at 6:44am