PAUL

iec786 wrote:

Greetings iec,

Paul didn't deceive anyone,
and it is a shame that you do not know this.
Paul always consulted with Peter and sought his approval, and the approval of all the Apostles, in all that he did.

I'm sorry that I don't have time right now to respond to each of the things you posted.  If I find that I can, I will come back to it.

Salaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart

iec786 wrote: PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit: "But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16 Paul was never recognized as an apostle by the Disciples OR Jesus Paul's account of his Damascus Road Experience changed every time he told it, thus the disciples knew he was lying. Paul taught the exact Opposite of what Jesus and His real disciples did. The devil 'PAUL' BLASPEMOUSLY BOASTED "For I BECAME YOUR FATHER" (1 Corinthians 4:15) "I ('PAUL') testify to the gospel of the grace of god...ANOTHER GOSPEL...ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL " (Acts 20:24. 2 Corinthians 11:4. 1 Corinthians 10:23). "PERVERTING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LAWLESSNESS EVEN DENYING THE ONLY LORD GOD (THE FATHER) AND OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST (THE FATHER'S SON)" (Jude 4. 1 John 2:22) http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/paul_was_a_deceiver.htm

Justgivemethetruth is a joke. You really believe Christians are that st**id?

Hang on, who? Perverting the grace... who? try reading the actual books instead of five minute web searches. Bet you haven't even read the verses referenced in your own copy/paste. That, at least would be a good place to start. No use posting unless you have an inkling.

Your credibility...just asking.

Hi iec,

Quote: PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit:
"But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I
CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16

Response: --- So I see you are still interested in Paul.
And you found the word �guile� and you thought Paul was deceitful. --- But the first meaning in the dictionary is �craft, or cunning.�
--- So we have to check a little history to find out what happened in Corinth.
Corinth was a bustling seaport city, the hub of world commerce, with all that goes with it, --- with a degraded culture and an idolatrous religion.

Along with Christians who lived there, Paul started a Church in Corinth. --- There were some genuine believers and the Church grew, but some of the people were disobedient and caused division, so, others contacted Paul, to give advice. --- He wrote 1 Corinthians, in which he exhorted them to be faithful to God. --- Two of their problems were immorality and idolatry. --- This is written in 1 Corinthians 5:
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles�that a man has his father�s wife! --- (this must obviously have been his stepmother, --- or else it would have been his own mother.)
2 And you are puffed up (arrogant), and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you, (and put out of the Church.)

And he gave this great verse, which is a truth from God in 1 Corinthians 10:
13 �No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.�
--- And anything that takes the place of God is an idol, and Paul said again:
14 �Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.�

The Bible dictionary says in the intro to 2 Corinthians,
Quote: �Since Paul�s first letter, the Corinthian Church had been swayed by false teachers who stirred the people against him. --- Paul had sent the letter with Timothy and on his return to Ephesus where Paul was, he brought the report of the opposition that had developed against him in Corinth.
And Paul made a brief and painful visit to the Corinthians. --- End of quote.
(Normally a visiting Apostle or Evangelist would be announced so the people would prepare for him, and the hypocrites would be on their best behavior. --- However, if you drop in unexpectedly, you see what is really happening, --- and this seems to be the crafty thing that Paul did.)
--- It was a painful trip because of the hypocrisy and immorality among them, so they were creating problems that could not be solved from a distance, if at all.    

Now we will go to the verses in 2 Corinthians 12:
14 Now for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be burdensome to you; for I do not seek yours, but you. For the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved.
--- (You may not understand this, but when you lead someone to Faith in God and in following Christ, they become a responsibility like a child in a family, so you teach them to follow their commitment. --- When they turn away, you are grieved.)
--- Paul was a tentmaker by trade, so he could often support himself, but usually the Church would pay the expenses. --- However, he says he would be supported by others and not be a burden to the Church.

16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning!
17 Did I take advantage of you by any of those whom I sent to you?
18 I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps?
19 Again, do you think that we excuse ourselves to you? We speak before God in Christ. But we do all things, beloved, for your edification (to build you up).
20 For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest there be contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults;
21 lest, when I come again, my God will humble me (perhaps with sadness among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

--- This was Paul�s exhortation to the hypocrites who had gone back to the ways of the world. --- As always is the case, there are some true believers, so there are divisions between them and the hypocrites, --- and the devil has a �hayday� in such a Church.

Placid

Hi Placid,
Thank you for the explanation.I would like to point out the true meaning of the word guile.

guile
Use Guile in a sentence
guile [gahyl] Show IPA
noun
insidious cunning in attaining a goal; crafty or artful deception; duplicity.
Origin:
1175�1225; Middle English < Old French < Germanic; akin to wile

Synonyms
trickery, fraud, craft. See deceit.

If Paul said he used deceit then that is what it means no matter what label you give it.Spin it anyway you like.