quran and science

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 airmano wrote:

To cut a long story short, take a look at the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAU_definition_of_planet  

Obviously we will never agree since even the specialists in the field do not agree on their definitions(!).

 To make live easier I will give you some better examples: Classical (Newtonian) mechanics was found to break down on very small scales which lead to the formulation of Quantum mechanics.

 Furthermore Newtonian mechanics did also not hold at high speeds, high gravitational fields and so on and thus Mr. Einstein had to extend Newtons view for these cases as well. This does however not mean that Newton "was wrong". It simply meant that his theory had to be extended. When you take a plane or drive over a bridge good old Newton still does a marvellous job.  I can even agree that there were scientific theories which had to be abandoned, like Lamarcks theory on the evolution (but his theory is still of use in the description of progress in science). May be you can look at these statements as soothing ,

Thanks for that link and the examples. Frankly there is nothing soothing or to feel overjoyed in these statements for me. Because it is a known fact that science being a human tool was, is and will always be imperfect with a very limited realm of operation, and as with anything human, science is expected to make mistakes and then correct it, and it is this human imperfection that is really driving science forward. 

 airmano wrote:

but before you get overjoyed you should however realize that your claim that the "Quran has withstood any tests for 1400 years flawlessly" is also "wrong" in the same sense.

With modern knowledge it is easy to see that the story about Noah's arc is impossible. In ancient times Muslims (as well as Christians) did believe in these stories in a literal sense.  

 You don't need rocket science to find out that there is not enough water on earth to immerse all our continents, not to talk about the impossibility to construct a boat large enough (with the means of the time) to hold all air breathing animals (+ the dinosaurs + the food) inside. There are many more examples in the Quran (like people turning into monkeys) which - when taken literally are shear nonsense. Islam - like Christianity adapt to these changes (imposed by science) by shifting prior "explanations" of our world into metaphorical meanings. So don't tell me that [the interpretation of] the Quran has withstood all tests without changes. BTW: Looking at the "sun as a lamp", you still find people here in the forum that take this claim literally, but science tells a different story. 

 In clear terms: The Quran get's permanently adapted to science, not the other way round ! Wicked people would call this behavior: "Moving the goal-posts".

I have never made this claim that   the interpretation of  the Quran has withstood all tests without changes, but what I have said and continue to say is that QURAN HAS WITHSTOOD THE TEST OF TIME ON ALL ASPECTS AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO TILL THE DAY OF RESURRECTION. 

Now, let�s look at the difference in these two statements. Quran is the word of Allah the almighty and it remains the same always. Whereas the interpretations are made by mortals like me and you with all the human limitations. It is perfectly normal for these human interpretations to get evolved as the human understanding gets improved especially in fields like Science. I will give you this example:

Al Anbiya 21:30:   Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?   - This is perfectly in line with the modern scientific idea of primary nebula followed by separation of elements resulting in formation of galaxies. Also a clear reference to the aquatic origin of life.

Now, how can you expect someone who interpreted the Quran with no scientific knowledge on this subject to give you the same interpretation as someone who interprets this verse with the background of the modern knowledge - hope you get my point. The point is that the Quranic verses with their profound meanings remains the same always, but in some cases it takes man considerable time to really understand its meanings to the fullest potential. In fact you brought a very important point � it is one of the unique characteristic of the Quran that it really raises to the level of the reader, a layman looking at the surface level meaning will get only that and for someone who dives deeper in, Quran can really challenge your thoughts to the limit to make you wonder at the magnificence of the ultimate creator. A book which can prompt the reader to look for higher meanings as his understanding gets better  � can you think of any other book on the face of this earth which can do this? 

So in a nutshell, Quran is the same always and as scientific understanding improves, science helps in a supporting role to understand some of the profound meanings in the Quranic verses � that should be clear and people should not get confused with illusions like Quran gets adapted to science or science has got something in competition with Quran and Allah.

As we have already discussed here and elsewhere in this forum, there is no point in trying to testify religion with science as matters of faith are clearly beyond the realm of science. However, we can have a look at the specific cases you have quoted:

Prophet Noah�s (pbuh) Ark :

Let�s see what the Quran says:

Hud 11:36-44:   And it was inspired in Noah, (saying): No-one of thy folk will believe save him who hath believed already. Be not distressed because of what they do. (36) Build the ship under Our eyes and by Our inspiration, and speak not unto Me on behalf of those who do wrong. Lo! they will be drowned. (37) And he was building the ship, and every time that chieftains of his people passed him, they made mock of him. He said: Though ye make mock of Us, yet We mock at you even as ye mock; (38) And ye shall know to whom a punishment that will confound him cometh, and upon whom a lasting doom will fall. (39) (Thus it was) till, when Our commandment came to pass and the oven gushed forth water, We said: Load therein two of every kind, a pair (the male and female), and thy household, save him against whom the word hath gone forth already, and those who believe. And but a few were they who believed with him. (40) And he said: Embark therein! In the name of Allah be its course and its mooring. Lo! my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. (41) And it sailed with them amid waves like mountains, and Noah cried unto his son - and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers. (42) He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. (Noah) said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned. (43) And it was said: O earth! Swallow thy water and, O sky! be cleared of clouds! And the water was made to subside. And the commandment was fulfilled. And it (the ship) came to rest upon (the mount) Al-Judi and it was said: A far removal for wrongdoing folk! (44)  

Now tell me where does it say that the whole of earth was submerged in water? It only talks about a specific people to whom prophet Noah (pbuh) was sent.

It is described as a flood caused by heavy downpour with water gushing from inside reservoirs � a typical flood. So why can�t be there enough water quantity to cause this flood?

The Ark was to carry a pair of living beings from his location, prophet Noah�s (pbuh) family and the believers, not the entire beings on the earth. So where is the problem of a large enough boat?

 airmano wrote:

Now to your link: https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=uld0Y-mLoVQC  which you repeat twice. I refuse to respond to links (films) and books without any prior explanation from the posting person.

I hope it doesn't sound rude, but to me this looks like: "I have no clue,  but may be the one who wrote the book knows more". If the book got really something important to say, break it down in a couple of lines and I'm willing to discuss it.

No problems, even I don�t follow links unless there is some background information. The only reason I didn�t elaborate was because I was not sure if you would be genuinely interested to discuss its contents. This is a 36 page booklet based on a transcription of a lecture given by Dr. Maurice Bucaille originally in French. I liked it because it is very short and direct to the point on a variety of scientific references in Quran including creation of universe, astronomy, sun moon, orbits, embryology etc. to name a few. Frankly, I don�t have the luxury of time to discuss each of these scientific references in detail, but I would love to do this at some point when I have time.

 airmano wrote:

Embryology. 

You're right, I should have answered earlier. Let me group my answer together with your last question regarding the clay: 
 If you are sure tell me what we are made of, then I can show you what is common between that and clayYou surely know that most our body consists of water H2O (by the way the Greeks knew that long before Mohammed but in Islam it is always Mohamed which is given as the "inventor". Strange isn't it ?).  Bones are mainly hydroxyapatite, with the formula Ca5(PO4)3(OH) thus Calcium based. The other main constituent element of our body is Carbon.  

 Most of the clays are (Alumina-)Silicates like Kaolin (Al2Si2O5(OH)4), they are thus Silicon based. So already on the level of (chemical) elements our body and clay got nothing in common. Therefore this statement is thus simply wrong when taken literally.  I guess that Mohamed saw that clay and "flesh" are similar in the sense that they are both soft and easily "malleable". Some forms of clay also look similar to the color of our skin, so nothing supernatural here and in the best case some (wrong) analogy.  As usual there is of course nothing about proteins, peptides, DNA and so on in the Quran. No surprise: The Quran is not a science book !

In a human body living tissues contain 95% carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus and sulphur, with a total of 26 different elements including Silicon, with oxygen being 65% and Hydrogen 9.5% by weight. So we can see there is much in common between human body and clay at the elemental level and the quranic statement of man being created from the essence of clay is very well substantiated.

 airmano wrote:

Now more specifically to embryology. In  23:12 it is written: [Quote]We created man from an essence of clay, then We placed him as a drop of fluid in a safe place. Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form, and then We made that form into a lump of flesh, and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms. Glory be to God the best of creators.

 Concerning the clay I just responded. Now, the "drop of fluid". (Islamic) literature is full of interpretations of this "drop of fluid". Sometimes it is referred to as sperm which brings us the incredible news that kids are coming from sexual intercourse. But even if interpreted as an embryo: Natural abortions did and do happen all the time (and the likelihood for it to happen goes up if you have several women and also with the age of the man). So you don't need to be Gods messenger to find out that foetuses are (mainly) a "lump of flesh".  It is also of no magic to state that what we call "uterus" today can be called a "safe place" for an unborn child. 

 Now to the last sentence "...made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh" - No, a foetus never gets converted into bones to become covered by flesh afterwards.  This is shear nonsense in the light of modern knowledge. 

To finish "...and later We made him into other forms" is a bit like my "A" statement. May be true, but so vague that it becomes meaningless.

Great! Going by your logic, if I go and ask an illiterate man in the desert how a human baby is created, he should be able to give such a detailed explanation as in the Quran. Whereas, even an educated man today won�t be able to explain with such precision unless he has specific knowledge in the field of embryology. But I�m not surprised, this behavior of selective loss of thinking is something observed in human beings especially when they are shown the truth which they are adamant not to accept.

Now if you want to get in to the specifics of Quranic verses on embryology, I think the below link in this forum provides some good insight with some interesting pictures:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25473