Qibla

Caringheart wrote: islamispeace wrote: Caringheart wrote: I am also confused by this: Yusuf Ali 96: The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: Shakir 96: Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka, blessed and a guidance for the nations. Pickthal 96: Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Becca, a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples; only does M. Khan add in parenthesis the word Makkah.  Is this a changing of the word of allah?  to make it suitable to the narrative... the making of the Ka'aba as the place of worship? M. Khan 96: Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-Alameen (the mankind and jinns). Bakkah/Becca was another name for Makkah/Mecca.  If you had bothered to read the verse in context, your self-inflicted "confusion" would dissipate: "The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures." What is the "Station of Abraham"?  In Arabic, it is known as "Maqam Ibrahim".  This is the place that the prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) stood when he was building the Kaaba with Ishmael (peace be upon him).  Greetings islamispeace, For these things which you say.... Who says so? Only because it fits the narrative? Why would the qur'an not have clearly stated Mecca, just as the Torah clearly stated Jerusalem? or the Ka'aba if it had actually been built by Abraham. (just as a side note, I was reading that there was more than one Ka'aba... that the original was rectangular, and when it was rebuilt it became a cube ? ... sort of mirrors the twice building stories of the Temple in Jerusalem) The earlier scriptures were always very clear, unchanging, about the Temple in Jerusalem being the house of worship to God... home of the Ark... the mercy seat of God. Why would the qur'an be less clear? asalaam, CH

As I already, your the one who is confused.  The Quran is actually very clear in differentiating between Jerusalem and Mecca.  When referring to the Isra of the Prophet from Mecca to Jerusalem, the Quran stated:

"Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)."

The "Sacred Mosque" (Al-Masjid Al-Haram) is in Mecca, while the "farthest Mosque" (Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa) is in Jerusalem.  Whenever the "Sacred Mosque" is mentioned, the context always shows that it is referring to the Kaaba in Mecca.  For example, in reference to a peace treaty the Muslims had made with the pagans of Arabia, the Quran states:

"How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous."

How much more clearer can it be?  What sane person would claim that the Quran was referring to Jerusalem in this case, especially since the Muslims had not yet been in Jerusalem yet and would not be until the reign of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab when he captured the city from the Byzantines?

islamispeace wrote: As I already, your the one who is confused.  The Quran is actually very clear in differentiating between Jerusalem and Mecca.  When referring to the Isra of the Prophet from Mecca to Jerusalem, the Quran stated: "Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)." The "Sacred Mosque" (Al-Masjid Al-Haram) is in Mecca, while the "farthest Mosque" (Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa) is in Jerusalem.  Whenever the "Sacred Mosque" is mentioned, the context always shows that it is referring to the Kaaba in Mecca.  For example, in reference to a peace treaty the Muslims had made with the pagans of Arabia, the Quran states: "How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous." How much more clearer can it be?  What sane person would claim that the Quran was referring to Jerusalem in this case, especially since the Muslims had not yet been in Jerusalem yet and would not be until the reign of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab when he captured the city from the Byzantines?

Greetings islamispeace,

So, your statements were curious to me for several reasons, so I wanted to look up the surah's you quoted to see what time period they came from, and I found this very interesting article.

As I stated, I only originally found it quite odd that the qur'an never says Mecca but referred to a place called Becca.
This article I found explains a lot in that regard, but that is not how I found it.
I was looking for 'qur'an pre-Meccan' when I found the article.

What I found curious about the reply I have quoted above is the reference, purportedly by the qur'an, to a 'sacred mosque' and a 'farthest mosque', and I couldn't help thinking,
How can the qur'an be referring to mosques when no mosques were even built before Muhammad introduced his religion?
so I wanted to know what time period the surah's were revealed, and they were all (17:1, 9:7, 48:24) prior to the year 620 a.d. of Yshwe.  Two of them as early as Medina.


So here is some of what I found in the article:  http://www.academia.edu/1776803/The_Mecca_Question

The reference in the qur'an is to a 'valley of bekkah' meaning 'valley of the one who weeps much'... or as I tend to think of it, because I think I have heard it from muslims before... the valley of weeping, or tears.

Mecca is only mentioned in surah 48... and the fact that it is mentioned as Mecca, not becca, I think would distinguish the fact that it is referring to a separate place... or a change has been made.

Also, apparently Muhammad first had his followers praying in the direction of Syria, and all the evidence supports the first holy place for muslims as Petra.

from the article:
"Surprising as it may seem, not one map before 900 AD even mentions Mecca.
It is also commonly accepted that Mecca was not just a major city, but it was the focus of pilgrimages in Arabia long before the rise of Islam. While there is little evidence of an early shrine at Mecca, Gibson points out that every historian of Arabia knows that pilgrimages were always made to the Nabataean city of Petra, which was known as the original haram or forbidden area of Ara-bia where killing was not allowed."

I quoted this last part because it supports a thing you have told to me...
the place where killing is not allowed.

9:7  "How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous."

asalaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 12 October 2014 at 8:58pm

Caringheart wrote: islamispeace wrote: As I already, your the one who is confused.  The Quran is actually very clear in differentiating between Jerusalem and Mecca.  When referring to the Isra of the Prophet from Mecca to Jerusalem, the Quran stated: "Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)." The "Sacred Mosque" (Al-Masjid Al-Haram) is in Mecca, while the "farthest Mosque" (Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa) is in Jerusalem.  Whenever the "Sacred Mosque" is mentioned, the context always shows that it is referring to the Kaaba in Mecca.  For example, in reference to a peace treaty the Muslims had made with the pagans of Arabia, the Quran states: "How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous." How much more clearer can it be?  What sane person would claim that the Quran was referring to Jerusalem in this case, especially since the Muslims had not yet been in Jerusalem yet and would not be until the reign of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab when he captured the city from the Byzantines? Greetings islamispeace, So, your statements were curious to me for several reasons, so I wanted to look up the surah's you quoted to see what time period they came from, and I found this very interesting article. As I stated, I only originally found it quite odd that the qur'an never says Mecca but referred to a place called Becca. This article I found explains a lot in that regard, but that is not how I found it. I was looking for 'qur'an pre-Meccan' when I found the article. What I found curious about the reply I have quoted above is the reference, purportedly by the qur'an, to a 'sacred mosque' and a 'farthest mosque', and I couldn't help thinking, How can the qur'an be referring to mosques when no mosques were even built before Muhammad introduced his religion? so I wanted to know what time period the surah's were revealed, and they were all (17:1, 9:7, 48:24) prior to the year 620 a.d. of Yshwe.  Two of them as early as Medina. So here is some of what I found in the article:  http://www.academia.edu/1776803/The_Mecca_Question The reference in the qur'an is to a 'valley of bekkah' meaning 'valley of the one who weeps much'... or as I tend to think of it, because I think I have heard it from muslims before... the valley of weeping, or tears. Mecca is only mentioned in surah 48... and the fact that it is mentioned as Mecca, not becca, I think would distinguish the fact that it is referring to a separate place... or a change has been made. Also, apparently Muhammad first had his followers praying in the direction of Syria, and all the evidence supports the first holy place for muslims as Petra. from the article: "Surprising as it may seem, not one map before 900 AD even mentions Mecca. It is also commonly accepted that Mecca was not just a major city, but it was the focus of pilgrimages in Arabia long before the rise of Islam. While there is little evidence of an early shrine at Mecca, Gibson points out that every historian of Arabia knows that pilgrimages were always made to the Nabataean city of Petra, which was known as the original haram or forbidden area of Ara-bia where killing was not allowed." I quoted this last part because it supports a thing you have told to me... the place where killing is not allowed. 9:7  "How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous." asalaam, CH

So, we can see how you find random articles online during your Google searches and then use them to suggest ridiculous theories.  Since the issues you raised have already been dealt with in detail by other Muslims, I am not going to waste time repeating them.  Instead, I suggest you read the following articles to help clear up your self-inflicted confusion:

1.  On the issue of "mosques" - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/aqsa.html

2.  On the issue of the Kaaba as a place of pilgrimage - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html

3.  On the issue of early mosques having supposedly not facing Mecca - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html

It should also be pointed out that the article you quoted makes the following claim but does not elaborate further:

"Gibson points out that every historian of Arabia knows that pilgrimages were always made to the Nabataean city of Petra, which was known as the original haram or forbidden area of Ara-bia where killing was not allowed."

Which historians state this?  The article does not specify.  Hmmm....

 


Edited by islamispeace - 13 October 2014 at 8:07am

Greetings islamispeace,

The explanations, at the links you provide, are really reaching if you ask me.
The qur'an would have stated 'to the Holy place Jerusalem' if that was what was meant, but it says 'farthest mosque'.  I believe a more likely explanation is that the word mosque(perhaps even the whole thing) is an addition of man when the qur'an was being compiled.
Why not just use the word masjid(place of prostration) if that was what allah meant?  Isn't that what allah would have said?

The best evidence to me is this;

    "On the famous place where once stood the temple, the Saracens worship at a square house of prayer, which they have built with little art, of boards and large beams on the remains of some ruins..."

but this was noticed, or observed to exist, some 40 years after the death of Muhammad.  We do not know of how many years it had been in existence prior.

Creswell states:
    ... their [i.e., Muslims'] architectural resources, before they started in their career of conquest, were barely enough to give expression to their needs. In other words Arabia constituted an almost perfect architectural vacuum... The first mosques in the great hiras, or half nomadic encampments of the conquest, such as Basra, Kufa and Fustat, were primitive in the extreme, and in Syria the first mosques were churches that had been converted or merely divided: In fact there is no reason for believing that any mosque was built as such in Syria until the time of al-Walid (705-15) or possibly `Abd al-Malik (685-705), for over a generation the Arabs remained quite untouched by any architectural ambitions...

It is worth noting that the Prophet disliked extravagance and impressive architecture in buildings, especially mosques. The relative simplicity of early mosques is in fact a historical example of how the Prophet's Companions diligently followed his wishes. This is true to a greater extent even today.
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and Ah yes, Psalm 84, the valley of Baca, the valley of weeping, or tears...
that is where I had heard of that.  (and it would seem to me also where Muhammad had heard of it)
The valley of Baca, or valley of weeping is a metaphorical reference to the suffering of this world... it is about the safety of seeking the Lord and dwelling with Him as your strength and guide to get us through the sorrows.  The Psalms are poetry... poetic.
The 'valley of Baca' is not about an actual geographic place (though Muhammad may have thought it was)
'How amiable are thy tabernacles, and safe is the place of dwelling with You'

Psalm 84
How amiable are thy tabernacles, O Lord of hosts!

² My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the Lord: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.

³ Yea, the sparrow hath found an house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, even thine altars, O Lord of hosts, my King, and my God.

⁴ Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.

⁵ Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.

⁶ Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.

⁷ They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.

⁸ O Lord God of hosts, hear my prayer: give ear, O God of Jacob. Selah.

⁹ Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed.

¹⁰ For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.

¹¹ For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

¹² O Lord of hosts, blessed is the man that trusteth in thee.

asalaam,
CH

for further clarity:

⁶ Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.

who passing through the valley of sorrows(of this life) fill it with their tears...

Edited by Caringheart - 13 October 2014 at 11:15am