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kingskid wrote: Muslim75, you wrote: "        <div ="msg" style=":left; overflow:auto;">    Honeto, Caringheart and�you who call�yourself "saint", � Men are not born with a propensity to sin. In Islam, men are born pure. Consider the baby who cries as he is born. He is pure. Then they start to sin at one point of time. Yet nothing is considered a sin until puberty...If you believe that men are born pure and a baby is born pure until "...they start to sin at one point of time...", how can they sin if they are born pure?� What is the age of puberty for Muslims?� 9, 12, it varies?� Regardless of the age puberty is determined, it must be concluded that what a child does the day before he attains puberty is not sin, but the next day it is.� If one were to set aside faith and simply use reason, it does not make sense that an act is not considered sinful one day, but on the next day when he attains puberty, it is.� Being born with a sin nature can only be understood by the rebellion of Adam and Eve and what happened to them when they disobeyed God and died spiritually in losing precious fellowship with God.� Their act of rebellion brought sin into the world for all mankind, hence the need for a Saviour.� Yeshua/Jesus, the Son of God, and the "Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world", became the acceptable sacrifice to atone for man's sinfulness. It doesn't matter if the term "original sin" is used or another term.� The fact remains that man has the propensity to sin from birth, not only the day he attains puberty.� We have all experienced the reality of sin in our own lives and in the lives of others.� If not, we deceive ourselves.�� That is the Christian view.

Kingskid,
Caringheart made a claim that Jesus was sinless, the only one who was sinless. All I showed as a proof was that he was not sinless, according to the Bible. He and you don't like to see and accept the reality and truth shown to you so you two reject it. But that's fine with me, that is now between you and God.

And it is not true that we are born with sins, what we grow up with and how we are raised makes us to follow God's way or other ways.
Yes there is an age where your responsibility is transferred to you until then it is on your parent's shoulder. Even the Bible teaches that in order to make it to heaven you must become (sinless) like little children: "And he said: �Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

I don't know where you live, but here in Texas there are things that you cannot do until you reach a specific age, driving, marriage, drink, smoke and so on. Yes crime one day, legal the next.

No one pays for no one else's sin dear kid, even your Bible agree with that, it says: " The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them." Ezekiel 18:20
And Jesus has clearly said in your own book telling you: "And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." Matthew 5:30 and you are trying to say that Jesus will take care of you sins or that his blood shed was to pay for your sins. I can only say, may God forgive you for your inequity in uttering falsehood against God, and his beloved servant Jesus. Your words will haunt you one day. Don't wait and repent from committing excesses. Ask God to forgive you and mend you course and not follow the course of defying logic, truth and evidence.
Forgive me, if I seem emotional, it is such a serious matter, it will be unnatural for me to not be emotional.
Hasan

Another instance of an uncharacteristic response by Jesus PBUH_

When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."

And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come."

I cannot dream how a prophet can address his mother as , 'woman'?

kingskid wrote: Peace to you, Hasan, and thanks for your comments.� I've responded and put my questions in bold.� You wrote:Kingskid, Caringheart made a claim that Jesus was sinless, the only one who was sinless. All I showed as a proof was that he was not sinless, according to the Bible. He and you don't like to see and accept the reality and truth shown to you so you two reject it. But that's fine with me, that is now between you and God. And it is not true that we are born with sins, what we grow up with and how we are raised makes us to follow God's way or other ways. Yes there is an age where your responsibility is transferred to you until then it is on your parent's shoulder. Even the Bible teaches that in order to make it to heaven you must become (sinless) like little children: "And he said: �Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3 I don't know where you live, but here in Texas there are things that you cannot do until you reach a specific age, driving, marriage, drink, smoke and so on. Yes crime one day, legal the next. No one pays for no one else's sin dear kid, even your Bible agree with that, it says: " The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them." Ezekiel 18:20 And Jesus has clearly said in your own book telling you: "And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." Matthew 5:30 and you are trying to say that Jesus will take care of you sins or that his blood shed was to pay for your sins. I can only say, may God forgive you for your inequity in uttering falsehood against God, and his beloved servant Jesus. Your words will haunt you one day. Don't wait and repent from committing excesses. Ask God to forgive you and mend you course and not follow the course of defying logic, truth and evidence. Forgive me, if I seem emotional, it is such a serious matter, it will be unnatural for me to not be emotional. HasanCaringheart is correct about Yeshua's sinlessness.� II Cor. 5:21 is just one passage:� "<span id="en-NIV-28899" ="text 2Cor-5-21">God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."� I can provide more scripture references if you desire.� I have to ask you, Hasan, what is your proof from the Bible that Yeshua was not sinless?� Perhaps I missed it.Our upbringing does influence us to some extent and maybe to a larger extent in other countries where familial customs are stronger.� Man's behavior can be thought of from the "nature/nurture" argument.� Personally, I think both are involved in shaping who we become.� But how do you explain what happens to a man who is brought up in a religious home yet commits horrible crimes?� He was not taught to be evil in his upbringing, but evil was in his soul, or psyche, if you will, and he acted upon it.� Unless one can be ruthlessly honest with himself and his own inclination to sin, he will be unable to understand the provision God made in His Son for redemption (or "buying back") of mankind.� By the way, a Biblical definition for sin is "missing the mark" and is not always overt evil.� Yeshua said if a man looks upon a woman to lust after her, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Mat. 5:28).You mention above that until puberty, a child's "responsibility" is on the parents' shoulders.� By "responsibility" do you mean a child's behavior, and if that behavior is bad, the parents have to be held accountable for it and not the child?� If so, how did the child learn bad behavior before puberty?� Mat. 18:3 is referring to a child's pliability (not that he is sinless).I understand what you are saying about how things can be illegal one day and legal the next, and that is a good point.� I believe that in most, if not all the 50 states, a man can only be convicted under the laws which were in effect at the time of his crime.� But it doesn't seem to correlate with what you said about the parents assuming responsibility for a child until he reaches puberty.� For instance, if a Muslim boy of maybe 6 or 7 years old is playing ball and in doing so breaks a neighbor's window, what happens?� Do the parents just say "I'm sorry?" or do they make reparations to the neighbor for his loss?� You quoted Eze. 18:20 about the</span><span id="en-NIV-28899" ="text 2Cor-5-21"> parent not sharing the guilt of the child, yet right before giving that scripture, you state that until personal responsibility is transferred to the Muslim child, the parents have to assume responsibility for his actions.� That is contrary to Eze. 18:20.� You are actually quoting scripture that substantiates what I've been saying about man's sin nature.� If you really want to understand where Christians are coming from on this sin issue, you could use an online Concordance (Strong's is a good one) and see all the references to sin in the Bible.� Unless one understands the issue of his own inherent sinfulness, he will never be able to understand what transpired on Calvary.� Believing and accepting the atoning death and resurrection of Yeshua HaMashiach is not iniquity, Hasan, but leads to eternal life.� How does a Muslim expect to be in heaven or paradise with no acceptable atonement for his sins?</span>

Kingkid,
I am surprised you did not know that the Bible shows Jesus sinning even though my belief as a Muslim is that all the prophets after being given the office of prophethood did not commit any sins.

This following quote suggest that even saying "you fool" is a sin.

Matthew 5:22 ESV / 49 helpful votes

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, �You fool!� will be liable to the hell of fire.

Now note here Jesus is quoted to have said:
"Matthew 12:34-37 ESV / 40 helpful votes

You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.�

Also Jesus cursed a tree when he was hungry and he got angry!
So according to the Bible only Jesus was not sinless, at least that's what it says.
Hasan

Hi honeto,

I hope you don't mind my butting in, but as a former Christian I would be very surprised to hear that Jesus committed a sin.

Matthew 5:22 specifically forbids anger against "brothers", i.e. fellow Christians.  The "vipers" that Jesus was condemning in Matthew 12:34-37 were Pharisees, not Christians.  Moreover, I think it's kind of implied that Matthew meant unjustly angry.  This admonition against anger is a Christian extension of the Old Testament commandment "Thou shalt not kill" mentioned in the previous verse (5:21); but "kill" in that context is generally taken to mean an unjust killing, i.e. murder.

I'm having a lot of difficulty seeing how it is a sin to "curse" a fig tree.  I would agree that it's a rather silly, petulant thing for Jesus to have done, but unless the tree was someone's property it seems like a victimless crime.  Do fig trees have rights?