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Greetings and peace to you, Hasan.  It is obvious that you are a sincere believer in Islam.  Thank you for your thoughtful reply.  The Christian view is what I stated earlier that original sin passed on to all humans from our first parents; however, babies and children to a certain age are not held accountable as they are deemed to be innocent until they know right from wrong. There is nothing in Christianity that I am aware of that holds to a dogmatic teaching on the age of accountability.  I think we are in agreement that people learn restraint in their behavior as they grow.  Religion, of course, plays a part.

Hasan, I do not repeat anything that I've heard, because no one has ever indoctrinated me against Islam.  I read and research on my own and have an inquiring mind.  Frankly, with all the ongoing murder, rape, kidnapping and torture by those who call themselves Muslims on Christians and others, that has been a catalyst for me to try to understand how men can act in such a barbaric and depraved manner toward other human beings.  And to do it in the name of religion, in the name of Islam.  These atrocities didn't just happen hundreds of years ago, but are happening today, even beheadings in my own country.  So, I started looking at Islam to understand what drives the fanatic and demonic behavior of certain Muslims and then I read of such atrocities in the Quran!  So either those Muslims who kill are doing what Mohammad said to do, and those Muslims who don't practice such things are being disobedient to the teachings of the Quran.  Perhaps another thread on that subject is due, and Muslims such as yourself can shed light on this very serious matter.

I could have phrased my comment about holiness better, because the emphasis I was trying to impart was the payment of sin.  Actually, I just posted a new topic with a question to Muslims on whether Allah is holy.  Because if he is holy, how does he maintain the integrity of his holiness by just being "all-forgiving".  What is the basis on which Allah can be all-forgiving?  If he is indeed holy, his holiness cannot be marred by sin.  Think deeply about this.

If you knew me Hasan, you would know that I make up my own mind about things and do so after much research and digging.  Unfortunately, my independence has often put me at odds with those who wished I were pliable and easily convinced!

The Saint wrote: Caringheart wrote: The almighty Creator is often fed up(loses patience) with man isn't He? No. He is never fed-up. That is a typical human trait, not divine.

Greetings The Saint,

You don't think the almighty Creator lost patience with man?
What about the flood?
and how many times did He remove blessings from the Israelites for not following His commands?

The Saint wrote: Caringheart wrote: The God of the Judeo scriptures seems to be a God of chances. Chances?

• Jonah in the belly of the great fish?
• and Jonah was being sent to Nineveh for the very purpose of giving the people there a second chance
• the saving of Lot and his family before destroying Sodom and Gommorah...
• over and over again the Israelites were disobedient, but over and over again, God gave them more chances for redemption
  
• Yshwe Messiah, was sent to show people the way to redemption
• the parable of the prodigal son to illustrate that God is a God of second chances

The Saint wrote: Caringheart wrote: The allah of the qur'an seems to be unforgiving.  I know that the words say 'He is oft forgiving', but that is not what I see in the scriptures of the qur'an. Can you cite an example?

This will take some time.  I will try to come back and do it.

The Saint wrote: Caringheart wrote: I see this as a half-truth put into the qur'an to mislead and misguide. I am asking you, why, if the Judeo-Christian Triune(with possibilities of dividing interests) God does not, would the all-powerful Allah mislead and misguide?

That was the point I was making... the true Creator would not, but someone else would.

asalaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 28 November 2014 at 3:08pm

The Saint wrote: Caringheart wrote: The allah of the qur'an seems to be unforgiving.  I know that the words say 'He is oft forgiving', but that is not what I see in the scriptures of the qur'an. Can you cite an example?

Caringheart wrote: This will take some time.  I will try to come back and do it.

Greetings The Saint,

Here is a small sample, and with my thoughts.

2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
no hope or chance for redemption -

2:10 In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.
rather than lead away from the disease - 'allah increases the disease' so they may be condemend to a 'painful doom'

2:17 Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see,
why would allah 'take away the light' if he wished for man to be saved?

I think this is meant to be like this from the book of James, but the meaning conveyed in the qur'an is entirely different...
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
the Word in the book of James is all about receiving blessing... about the way to salvation... not about being condemned.


2:23 And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.
2:24 And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.
Oft forgiving?


2:85 Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression ? - and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you - Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof ? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
This passage is interesting to me because while in the qur'an it was being written about the Jews... who might it appear to apply to to this day?

'Believe ye in part, and disbelieve ye in part' ... who is it that believes in only part of the Word of God, rejecting that which came earlier?
and 'what is the reward' of those who believe only in part?  (ponder this carefully, and look at the state of events in the world... look up the word ignominy)

Does allah offer any second chance for those believe at least in part? 
I believe that my God does,
for those in their innocence having been misled, not knowing any better... to them will be the chance to see the light before the last day, accepting Yshwe as their Savior.  When the two witnesses appear in Jerusalem and testify, all will have the chance to believe and accept salvation before it is too late... but they must be able to see the difference between the true Christ, and the anti-Christ... the deceiver.



2:88 And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe.
This passage puts me in mind of a man who came to Yshwe -
of how opposite it is to the behavior of Yshwe - Yshwe healed the child, He did not curse the man for his weakness of belief... He gave Him reason to believe. (recorded in the book of Mark, chapter 9)

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him(the child), and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

asalaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 29 November 2014 at 3:05pm

The Saint wrote: Caringheart wrote: [QUOTE=The Saint] [QUOTE=Caringheart]Greetings The Saint,Here is a small sample, and with my thoughts. 2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.no hope or chance for redemption - You did not quote the context. Because the context explains why Allah is rigid in verse no 6. 2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah; 3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them; 4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and [in their hearts] have the assurance of the Hereafter. 5. They are on [true] guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper. The sixth verse is clear on what constitutes faith. Therefore, those and only those who do not believe even in the Taurat and the Injil even and who do not believe even in the hereafter must suffer the consequences. 2:10 In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. rather than lead away from the disease - 'allah increases the disease' so they may be condemend to a 'painful doom' Again you are quoting without proper context. Tell me why should an all powerful God forgive such nasty, atheistic and rebellious people? 8. Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not [really> believe. 9. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise [it> not! 10. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they [incur>, because they are false [to themselves>. 11. When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!" 12. Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise [it> not. 13. When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know. 14. When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We [were> only jesting." 15. Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones [To and fro>. 2:17 Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see, why would allah 'take away the light' if he wished for man to be saved? Same case. Read in context anyone would agree with the Lord.

Greetings The Saint,

I didn't quote the whole context of the qur'anic verses because there was no need.   I did read and study the whole context before ever posting.  It is clear, allah 'seals the hearing, the hearts, and the eyes'... that rather than try to remove the disease he 'increases the disease'... he 'takes away the light and leaves them in darkness'.

⁹ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.   (from the second letter to Peter in the Bible)

This is my God.

I can understand God letting people go to their own doom because of their own choices and their own actions... but my God does not help them along that path... He makes every effort, with great patience, to lead away from that path... that is why Yshwe was sent.

It is only 'the god of this world' that has 'blinded the eyes, and hardened the hearts of men' that they might not be saved, according to the Bible... according to my God and Saviour.

asalaam,

Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 01 December 2014 at 11:31am