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The Saint 
Senior Member 
Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
 Posted: 17 March 2015 at 4:57am |
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Greetings The Saint,
Yshwe provides explanation, the difficulty is in man's ability to comprehend. He often told His Disciples that there were things they would not yet understand. It may not be possible to explain to a 3-dimensional being things of a multi-dimensional nature. I know of at least one instance recorded in the Bible that quotes him as saying, John 16:12 King James Version (KJV) 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. So, Jesus PBUH, indeed, did say that. But notice he said he will lead you into all truth. What do you think he meant here when he said, all truth? Does it appear that he was referring to an explanation of a peculiar doctrine or were his words a reference to a broader understanding of religion per se? (There is a surah of the qur'an that speaks of the 'people of the Book' disputing about their scriptures... I'm having trouble finding that surah at the moment, but) Muhammad was correct that; People seemed to have had a hard time understanding and agreeing on the concept of what Yshwe taught regarding His nature, and His nature as it related to the Father and the Holy Spirit. On this there were differing interpretations, opinions, and ideas, and possibly no real, clear understanding. So, to be sure, there would have been much discussion and debate going on among the church members and leaders. That is a problem, I believe God is eminently capable of explaining to His subjects. But there never was such a concept except among the pagans. So, there never was an explanation. Who was better qualified to explain the idea of the trinity than one part of the said trinity, himself. As I say... how do you explain to a 3-dimensional being and thinker... a multi-dimensional concept? No, Muhammad was not referring to the difficulty of the people of the book in understanding the scripture. It was actually the Quran saying, saying something quite different_ If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. Does islam not accept that Mary was the wife of Joseph? No. I have already told you earlier that Jesus PBUH could not have been crucified for any number of reasons. A crucified Messiah is an impossibility - the one hanged on the tree to die is a traitor or a blasphemer. Hanging on the cross he is accursed by God and men. Such was the priestly doctrine in the days of Jesus, as we have learned from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other early Jewish sources. In Deuteronomy 21:22-23 we find the following law: If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and you hang him on a tree, you must not leave the body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is a curse of God. You must not defile the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance. More soon. Edited by The Saint - 17 March 2015 at 4:58am |
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Caringheart
Senior Member 
Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
Posted: 17 March 2015 at 6:15pm |
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Greetings The Saint, I believe this is how Muhammad might have seen the subject... seeing those who bowed and prayed in open prostration and frequently, as those who were pious... but he obviously missed the message of Yshwe who taught... 'do not do as the Pharisees do.... making a great show... but when ye pray do it privately, and when you give alms, do it with no great show or desire of reward or recognition...' Yshwe taught that it was not in the ritual that one earned favor with God, but in the condition of the heart. He taught not to seek favor among men, but only with God.
So in islam, is it believed that Mary was never married... was there no one to support her and to help her raise her son? Or is that page just left blank in islam? It is hardly likely that any woman in those times, could have raised a child without the support of a marriage... of a husband. She would have been stoned before the child could have been born.
Ok.  asalaam and blessings, CH Edited by Caringheart - 17 March 2015 at 6:32pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member
Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
Posted: 17 March 2015 at 6:31pm |
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Greetings The Saint, Have I ever shared the following with you... it's a short 7 minutes of your time, Explaining God with reason It should help you to understand what I am saying. asalaam and blessings to you, CH |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
Posted: 19 March 2015 at 3:39am |
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Hello CH
Continuing from where I left-off_ and this makes more sense, in what way? Why defy, or deny, what many witnesses testified to? The Romans witnessed and recorded His death, the rending of the heavens, taking Him down from the cross, and saw Him buried. Tell me, do you trust every word you see in the Bible? Btw,which Bible do you read? You know, I hope that there are many versions of the Bible. Ad they differ from each other? So, let us decide first, what you trust? Which version, that is? As regards, how does his second coming make sense...............I thought all Christians believe in his second coming? Don't you? Well, from the Islamic perspective, he must come because he must die. Since the Quran states that every soul born must die. Secondly, he must come because his is only people who started worshipping him. No, other people of the Abrahamic faiths have ever done it as except the Trinitarian Christians. When you deny His death and resurrection, that His Disciples saw Him walk again on earth, and saw Him ascend into heaven, you deny His whole message, His reason for coming.... the message that we can all have eternal life. None of the disciples witnessed his so called crucifixion! That is what I am saying. The Gospels record that the 12 apostles �forsook him and fled� at Gethsemane (Matt. 26:56), they disappeared from the Gospel story and did not witness the crucifixion. None of the disciples believed that Jesus rose from the dead (Mark 16:14, Luke 24:11). This means the early Christians did not believe Jesus had to die for their sins (Ps. 20:6, Matt. 16:22). IF the disciples knew that Jesus had to rise, why didn�t they return to Jerusalem to see the resurrection? Yet the Gospels are clear that nobody witnessed the resurrection of Jesus. The concept of dying-rising Messiah was unknown to Judaism: Jesus could not have foreseen his rejection, death, and resurrection, as the idea of a suffering, dying, and rising Messiah or son of Man was unknown to Judaism. (Israel Knohl, The Messiah before Jesus, The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls, p. 2) Furthermore, the crucifixion did not even take place in Jerusalem! According to the book of Revelations, Jesus was crucified in Rome: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Revelations 11:8, KJV) Jesus made it clear that crucifixion was not his purpose (Matt. 9:13, 12:7, Mark 1:38, Luke 4:43, 19:10) The apostles did not believe Jesus rose from the dead (Matt. 28:17, Mark 16:14, Luke 24:11). The apostles did not expect Jesus to rise from the dead (Matt. 16:22, Mark 9:30-32) Jesus never foretold his crucifixion (Psalms 20:6, 18:50, Matt. 26:39) Jesus did not want to die, he was unwilling (Mark 14:26, Luke 22:42-43) God promised to save the Messiah (1 Chron.16:22, 2Chron. 6:42, Psalms 28:8) Christians believe the exact opposite of the Bible (Proverbs 21:18) The Bible rejects human sacrifice (Deu. 12:31, 2 Kings 17:17) Yes, Yshwe lives... Yes, He will come again... but He has life eternal. I wonder if, when He comes again, He will come in flesh. Of course, he will come in the flesh because he must die. Go and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.' (the Word of Yshwe from His own mouth, recorded in the book of Matthew) 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: It doesn't really matter that He didn't use a particular word... the word Trinity. It is quite clear from His Word that there is a Trinity... a unity of 3... In my humble opinion it does matter a great deal that he never used the word, trinity. Read verse in the following that quote Jesus PBUH talking of of one God.1 Timothy 2:5English Standard Version (ESV) 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a> Christ Jesus, John 20:17 ESV Jesus said to her, �Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, �I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.�� John 14:28 ESV You heard me say to you, �I am going away, and I will come to you.� If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Acts 4:27 ESV for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, All the above prove that even Christians believe God is one. and this is quite clear from the beginning when the Creator said... 'let Us create man in Our image' Answer: Matthew 28:19 states: "Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Although the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are grouped together, this verse does not prove the existence of a triune deity. The verse merely indicates the author's belief that they are to be mentioned together during baptism. Each is thought to have a function in the initiation of the believer during the baptism ritual. Yet no doctrine of coequality among them is promulgated in this verse. In the early period baptism was simply in "Christ" (Galatians 3:27) or in the name of Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:13, Acts 8:16, 19:5). The text in Matthew represents a later stage of development, but is still not trinitarian in meaning. The doctrine of the trinity is a still later development. and by the fact that all through the qu'ran, allah refers to himself as we. Not all through the Quran does Allah SWT refer to Himself as we or us. He also refers to Himself as I also. And the pronoun We is a royal one. Just as kings say we. |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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Caringheart
Senior Member
Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
Posted: 22 March 2015 at 4:27pm |
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Greetings The Saint, I present for further study; Israel Knohl, The Messiah before Jesus, The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls consideration; Messiah.... suffering servant.... meaning simply, martyr ? one who suffers for God? Edited by Caringheart - 22 March 2015 at 4:28pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member
Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
Posted: 22 March 2015 at 4:54pm |
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Regarding this.... I had to consult my stack of Bibles... The original writing is this; 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 'Which 'spiritually'(or figuratively) is called Sodom and Egypt' from pneumatikos - non-physically, spiritually, figuratively If you look to the beginning of the chapter, you will see that 'the great city' is Jerusalem (where the temple always is). It is comparing the condition of the city of Jerusalem at the time of Christ's return, with the condition of Sodom and Egypt. (Why Egypt? I don't know) Edited by Caringheart - 22 March 2015 at 7:07pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member
Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
Posted: 22 March 2015 at 6:12pm |
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Greetings The Saint,
You ask all very good questions. Why did the disciples not return to see the crucifixion... (at least one did, and so did Mary, mother of Yshwe)... but back to the good questions you raise... I see your difficulty. The disciples did not understand, ahead of time, that Yshwe must die... that He would die and be raised again... Yshwe even told them in talking to them, that they could not understand what it was that He was telling to them, but that they would understand later. (read the book of John, Chapters 7 and 8... many could not understand what Yshwe was telling them) ... and so, when they knew of the death of Yshwe on the cross, they learned of it after the fact from the talk of others... from the reports of the Roman citizens, and the Jews that had called for His death (and of course from the witness of Mary, Mother of Yshwe, and the Apostle that was with her).... and so, for some, things began to come clear. But I can see why this would have caused much discussion and debate at His reappearance, and why some might have chosen to believe that He had somehow not been put on the cross... that He had somehow managed escape. The Truth being that yes, He did escape death... but not in the way some may have chosen to think... He escaped death because His Father, the Creator, raised Him from death, just as Yshwe had raised Lazarus from death... this was all so that the people could understand. We all can be raised from death by giving ourselves to the Creator. It is the power of God to do it. (all according to what Yshwe had been telling them throughout His ministry... 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.') Read the story of Thomas, known today as 'doubting Thomas' (book of John, chapter 20). It was Thomas who did not believe at first, but confirmed the resurrection by placing his hand in the wound in Yshwe's side, and in the wounds of His hands. Regarding Matthew 12... 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth He knew that they did not yet understand. and being 'sent to preach', in no way precludes the fact that He would also give His life. Edited by Caringheart - 22 March 2015 at 7:13pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member
Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
Posted: 22 March 2015 at 6:24pm |
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Regarding Matthew 16:22, do not neglect to read the full text. 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. Yshwe was telling His disciples that giving the earthly life for God would obtain eternal life. He was telling them that He would be giving His earthly life to save souls. Both the testimonies written in Matthew and Mark tell that Yshwe said He would rise again on the third day. Edited by Caringheart - 22 March 2015 at 6:27pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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The Original Sin
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