The Original Sin

The Saint wrote: Jesus never foretold his crucifixion (...Matt. 26:39)

If He didn't 'foretell His crucifixion', why was He praying to
'let this cup pass from Me' ... 'never the less, not My will Father, but Yours be done'

and in the book of Mark, chapter 14....

²⁵ Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

²⁶ And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

²⁷ And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

²⁸ But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.

Yshwe was referring to Himself as the shepherd, as He had often done, and His disciples the sheep that would be scattered on His account.

and He spoke of rising after having been 'smitten', i.e., killed.

I don't know that I need to continue.  You should study these scriptures more thoroughly for yourself.

I agree that Yshwe was a contradiction to Proverbs 21:18...

but then, all of Yshwe's life was counter-intuitive to what had earlier been taught and believed.  That was rather the whole point.... and also the reason He was crucified by His people.

asalaam and blessings,

CH

Edited by Caringheart - 22 March 2015 at 7:16pm

and last, but not least...

The Saint wrote: All the above prove that even Christians believe God is one.

We do believe God is One... One in the sense of plurality... multifaceted.... a concept only partly comprehensible to the human mind.

Elohim is the word used for the Creator in Genesis(in the Torah)...
Elohim which implies plurality in unity.  I have done much study on this and shared it other places on this forum.  (Search the word Elohim)
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32538&KW=elohim&PID=193680#193680

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31680&KW=elohim&PID=190696#190696

The concept of trinity is found all throughout Torah.

asalaam and blessings,
CH

I have been hoping to receive a reply to my question about Mary, according to islam, not having a husband?
Shukran and salaam.

Greetings The Saint,

You ask all very good questions. Smile

Hello CH

I try to do my bit to do the right thing and to keep our discussions lively and meaningful.

Why did the disciples not return to see the crucifixion... (at least one did, and so did Mary, mother of Yshwe)...

Please cite your evidence.

The disciples did not understand, ahead of time, that Yshwe must die... that He would die and be raised again...

That is pure conjecture! Why would Jesus PBUH keep his disciples in the dark? It was a huge and violent tragedy about to strike him. He had every reason, therefore, to warn his disciples.

Yshwe even told them in talking to them, that they could not understand what it was that He was telling to them, but that they would understand later. (read the book of John, Chapters 7 and 8... many could not understand what Yshwe was telling them)

No, that was a reference to how the complete faith will come to them. He was predicting the coming of the spirit of truth. It could not have been anything else. Because he was talking to his disciples in their native language so there could not have been any difficulty in understanding him.

The Saint wrote: Greetings The Saint, You ask all very good questions. Smile Hello CH I try to do my bit to do the right thing and to keep our discussions lively and meaningful. Why did the disciples not return to see the crucifixion... (at least one did, and so did Mary, mother of Yshwe)... Please cite your evidence.

Greetings The Saint,

Will you accept evidence that was written down in the testimony of the Apostles?
as recorded in the book of John, chapter 19:

23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

The Saint wrote: The disciples did not understand, ahead of time, that Yshwe must die... that He would die and be raised again... That is pure conjecture! Why would Jesus PBUH keep his disciples in the dark? It was a huge and violent tragedy about to strike him. He had every reason, therefore, to warn his disciples.

He would keep them in the dark for the very reasons revealed by Peter's reaction when the soldiers came to get Him (Peter lunged at the soldier, cutting off his ear)(recorded books of John 18, Mark 14, and Matthew 26)... and Yshwe told him to put away his sword:

⁵⁰ ... Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.

⁵¹ And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

⁵² Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

⁵³ Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

⁵⁴ But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

⁵⁵ In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

⁵⁶ But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.

Had the Apostles understood all that was to happen they would have tried to interfere, and prevent, what was God's will, and what must happen.
It was not time for them to know... as Yshwe often told them, 'it is not the time for you to understand all things, but in time you will understand'

Yshwe often spoke in parables... or in riddles, if you will.  He often had to explain His teachings to His Disciples.

The Saint wrote: Yshwe even told them in talking to them, that they could not understand what it was that He was telling to them, but that they would understand later. (read the book of John, Chapters 7 and 8... many could not understand what Yshwe was telling them) No, that was a reference to how the complete faith will come to them. He was predicting the coming of the spirit of truth. It could not have been anything else. Because he was talking to his disciples in their native language so there could not have been any difficulty in understanding him.

You will note that Yshwe said that He would send the Spirit of Truth to His Disciples... to those who were His followers.

Note the following:

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

You see, He was saying that the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, would live IN them... that HE would live in them.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Comforter, the Holy Spirit, would come in the name of Yshwe, reminding of all the things which He had spoken to them.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

King James Version (KJV)

asalaam and blessings,
Caringheart

yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
(for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.)

4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.


Edited by Caringheart - 31 March 2015 at 4:38pm