The Original Sin

Any evidence (besides the Quran/Hadiths ) for these claims ?

Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book:

..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent warrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.[1>

The Saint wrote: What would you say if I were to tell that his birth took place around Summer in The Mid east. Also that he was never crucified. Because those crucified were supposed to be cursed.

Greetings The Saint,

I agree with you that the date which Christians celebrate for the birth of Yshwe can be disputed.
I'm not sure that it matters.

I disagree that He was never crucified.
I imagine to be crucified would be to be cursed,
 had it not been the will of God, and by the submission of Yshwe.
Isn't God, the Creator, the One in charge of curses and blessings, and isn't it in His power to decide?

asalaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart

airmano wrote: There is no comment about Abraham nor about the Kaaba ever being venerated by Jews/Christians nor about people turning into monkeys (these were the points I asked the evidence for). So, your reply has absolutely nothing to do with my request.

Exactly.  We all know that the Kaaba existed before Muhammad; and I don't see how showing that it was previously a pagan/polytheist shrine lends credibility to the myth that Abraham had anything to do with it.  If anything, that would make it less likely.

Beyond that: could you be more specific in your references? In order to check the relevance of a claim it is not enough to say that somebody said something. What was the title of the book? On which page did he write this ? What was the context? What was his expertise in the field of Islam and the history of the Orient ?

I can help you with that.  It's from The History of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon: Volume V, Chapter L, Part II (yeah, it's a HUGE book! -- search for the second occurence of the word "mythology" to find it).

It's interesting that the peculiar truncated half-sentence at the beginning of The Saint's quote actually begins as follows: "I am ignorant, and I am careless, of the blind mythology of the Barbarians".  So Gibbon is not even claiming any particular expertise here.  No wonder The Saint didn't want to include that phrase.

P.S.: By the way, if you read Footnote 45 to this passage, it seems doubtful that Gibbon was even correct in identifying this pre-Christian temple as the Kaaba:

Note: Mr. Forster (Geography of Arabia, vol. ii. p. 118, et seq.) has raised an objection, as I think, fatal to this hypothesis of Gibbon. The temple, situated in the country of the Banizomeneis, was not between the Thamudites and the Sabaeans, but higher up than the coast inhabited by the former. Mr. Forster would place it as far north as Moiiah. I am not quite satisfied that this will agree with the whole description of Diodorus�M. 1845

Edited by Ron Webb - 03 May 2015 at 11:46am

There is no comment about Abraham nor about the Kaaba ever being venerated by Jews/Christians nor about people turning into monkeys (these were the points I asked the evidence for).

Gibbon here is informing you of the antiquity of the Kaaba about which you were in denial.

He has established that it existed even in pre-christian times. Thus raising the possibility that Abraham and His son Ismail could have built it.

So, your reply has absolutely nothing to do with my request.

Beyond that: could you be more specific in your references?

In order to check the relevance of a claim it is not enough to say that somebody said something. What was the title of the book? On which page did he write this ? What was the context? What was his expertise in the field of Islam and the history of the Orient ?

I think that should answer quite a few of your questions.Read the book, I suggest.

Edward Gibbon (Introduction by Christopher Dawson), Gibbon's Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, Volume V, Everyman's Library, London, pp. 223-224.

Is this what you wanted to express ? I strongly doubt that his judgement about Islam would have/has been any better.

That is mere conjecture and very weak at that. Because we also happen to know what he said about the Prophet of Islam.

"The greatest success of Mohammad's life was effected by sheer moral force without the stroke of a sword." [History Of The Saracen Empire, London, 1870>.