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The Saint 
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 832
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 Posted: 04 May 2015 at 3:04am |
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Greetings The Saint,
Hello CH
I agree with you that the date which Christians celebrate for the birth of Yshwe can be disputed.
I'm not sure that it matters.
Actually, in my opinion, no birthday or death day matters.
I disagree that He was never crucified.
I imagine to be crucified would be to be cursed,
had it not been the will of God, and by the submission of Yshwe.
Isn't God, the Creator, the One in charge of curses and blessings, and isn't it in His power to decide?
Really, it was not the will of God that a dear Prophet should be treated like a criminal. The Quran is quite clear on the matter. He was replaced by a similar looking person.
Then there is evidence in the NT that only the accursed were crucified.
�If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang
him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury
him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as
an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.� (Deuteronomy 21:22-23 New King
James Version)
asalaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart
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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious
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The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 832
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Posted: 04 May 2015 at 3:19am |
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Exactly. We all know that the Kaaba existed before Muhammad; and I don't see how showing that it was previously a pagan/polytheist shrine lends credibility to the myth that Abraham had anything to do with it. If anything, that would make it less likely.
If pagans start using a shrine, their rituals do not change the original purpose of the structure. Does it? And I thought Airmano was not even ready to accept the Kaaba existed before Muhammad PBUH.
Today the Kaaba is rid of all its idols. The building was cleansed and reverted to the use it was originally intended for. The Worship of the one, true God.
It's interesting that the peculiar truncated half-sentence at the beginning of The Saint's quote actually begins as follows: "I am ignorant, and I am careless, of the blind mythology of the Barbarians". So Gibbon is not even claiming any particular expertise here. No wonder The Saint didn't want to include that phrase. Wink.
You are rushing to believe your fantasies. I copied the quote from http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html and it is exactly as I quoted.
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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious
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Ron Webb
Senior Member
Male
atheist
Joined: 30 January 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2467
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Posted: 04 May 2015 at 7:49am |
 The Saint wrote:
If pagans start using a shrine, their rituals do not change the original purpose of the structure. Does it? |
If the earliest known use of a shrine was by the pagans, then why would anyone assume that its original purpose was something else?
| And I thought Airmano was not even ready to accept the Kaaba existed before Muhammad PBUH. Today the Kaaba is rid of all its idols. The building was cleansed and reverted to the use it was originally intended for. The Worship of the one, true God. |
How odd that your "one true God" would have allowed idols in His house to begin with! Isn't He supposed to be omnipotent?
| You are rushing to believe your fantasies. I copied the quote from http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html and it is exactly as I quoted. |
Yes, I'm aware of that; but if you quoted it, then you are responsible for it. There is no excuse for not checking the original source. The Internet makes it so easy.
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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airmano
Senior Member
Joined: 31 March 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 884
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 4:44am |
The Saint:
| Gibbon here is informing you of the antiquity of the Kaaba about which you were in denial. |
Could you post the sentence where I express my denial ?
-------------------------------------------------------
Than
| That is mere conjecture and very weak at that. Because we also happen to know what he [Edward Gibbon] said about the Prophet of Islam. |
Did you read my last post/quotation from his book ? Does this really sound positive to you ? (on behalf of Mohamed).
You told me to read the book, did you ? - or was is just the usual copy and paste from your islamic webpages (that also copy and paste from each other without checking) ?
------------------------------------------------------
Than:
| Really, it was not the will of God that a dear Prophet should be treated like a criminal. The Quran is quite clear on the matter. He was replaced by a similar looking person. |
How does this fit to Allah being "just"? An innocent person being crucified just because he looked like Jesus ?
Do you really think the Romans and the Jewish high priest were such fools ?
Frankly, this is laughable.
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To finish: I still wait for your answers on my questions:
Are there any historical writings, paintings, coins, DNA tests, excavation sites, similarities in building style... supporting that:
a) The Kaaba was build by Abraham ?
b) That there has ever been a moment where the Kaaba was holy to the Jews and/or the Christians ?
c) That human beings ever evolved into monkeys ?
No problem if you haven't got any, but then be at least honest about it.
Airmano
Edited by airmano - 05 May 2015 at 4:54am
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The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 832
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 8:48am |
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Hard stuff isn't it ?
What did I say again in my last post?: "I strongly doubt that his [Edward Gibbons] judgement about Islam would have/has been any better."
Cheers: Airmano
Ps: @The Saint: Any news from the Jinn, Angel and Noodle-Monster front ?
So? What are you labouring to prove to yourself? That all those who paid tributes to Muhammad PBUH don't amount to much? That they are inconsistent or intolerant?
Do you ever stop to introspect as to how petty you are? Only to further your negative agenda?
No. I told you I do not converse with Jinns. Angels are beyond human beings and I do not read juvenile comics.
Edited by The Saint - 05 May 2015 at 8:49am
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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious
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airmano
Senior Member
Joined: 31 March 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 884
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 12:46pm |
The Saint:
So? What are you labouring to prove to yourself? That all those who paid tributes to Muhammad PBUH don't amount to much? That they are inconsistent or intolerant?
Do you ever stop to introspect as to how petty you are? Only to further your negative agenda?
No. I told you I do not converse with Jinns. Angels are beyond human beings and I do not read juvenile comics. |
Touched a nerve, huh !?
So implicitly you admit that citing Edward Gibbons as an admirer of Islam was a bad choice from your side (another one bites the dust).
The same applies for the Hocus-pocus around the the Jinns.
I would have found it more courageous to admit it openly instead of barking back the standard phrase of Mohamed being perfect, but I'm not a sadist and will stop on these two subjects if you don't insist from your side.
Airmano
Edited by airmano - 05 May 2015 at 12:54pm
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The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 832
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Posted: 06 May 2015 at 4:41am |
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Touched a nerve, huh !?
Yes, it pains me when people make comments out of ignorance and bigotry.
So implicitly you admit that citing Edward Gibbons as an admirer of Islam was a bad choice from your side (another one bites the dust).
No, I admit nothing of the sort. These quotes are picked-up by the Muslims so your insistence about secular sources is fulfilled. For us the Quran and the Hadiths more than suffice regarding the truth about Muhammad PBUH. Besides Muslims also read commentaries on his exalted character and accept them which you could also, but don't.
The same applies for the Hocus-pocus around the the Jinns.
Regarding the Jinns, why don't you write to Islamicity? Ask them how you could go about contacting them?
I would have found it more courageous to admit it openly instead of barking back the standard phrase of Mohamed being perfect,
but I'm not a sadist and will stop on these two subjects if you don't insist from your side.
It is trifling issue. You are clutching at straws as I said earlier.
However, if you like playing this game of discrediting commentators let me give you another assignment.
Here's another quote_
There is Muhammad, the Prophet; there is Muhammad, the Warrior; Muhammad, the Businessman; Muhammad, the
Statesman; Muhammad, the Orator; Muhammad, the Reformer; Muhammad, the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad, the Protector
of Slaves; Muhammad, the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad, the Judge; Muhammad, the Saint. All in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is
like a hero.�
― K.S. Ramakrishna Rao
Let me see how you fare on this one.
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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious
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The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 832
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Posted: 06 May 2015 at 5:05am |
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Could you post the sentence where I express my denial ?
Hard stuff isn't it ?
What did I say again in my last post?: "I strongly doubt that his [Edward Gibbons] judgement about Islam would have/has been any better."
Did you read my last post/quotation from his book ? Does this really sound positive to you ? (on behalf of Mohamed)
No, if the post is true, it is definitely not positive. But does that change the fact that elsewhere he did say positive things.
You told me to read the book, did you ? - or was is just the usual copy and paste from your islamic webpages (that also copy and paste from each other without checking) ?
What are you talking about? Please explain.
How does this fit to Allah being "just"? An innocent person being crucified just because he looked like Jesus ?
It could have been a criminal, you are once again only guessing.
The noble verse says:It is stated in the Quran, That they said (in their boast), "We killed the Messiah Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), The Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety They killed him not-Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise- Q 4:157-158.
Do you really think the Romans and the Jewish high priest were such fools ?
They were fooled by none less than God Almighty Himself.
Frankly, this is laughable.
Not to me. I believe in Allah SWT, God of Jesus PBUH, your God and mine
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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious
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