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Israfil 
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 Posted: 03 April 2005 at 9:41pm |
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The Christian Poser said: "well we beleive in tawhid...moreso...as much as the ummah - it is the ummah that have been forced to believe through years and decades and centuries of ignorant and decieving lies that chrstians believe in "three gods" that have somehow made you so offensive when a christian calls himself as a reprisentative of "tawhid" ....it is unfortunate that you have been dupped in your book and your muslim classes that christians believe that ther are 3 gods when christians have not and will never believe that....only one God" You aparently are confused.. |
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Angel
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Posted: 03 April 2005 at 9:58pm |
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Well, yeah
Why do you separate it, why do you think its two people, I think this is a mistake on muslims part, of course you are going to get 2 people / 3 Gods if you separate the concept and see it this way. Christians keep telling there is ONLY ONE GOD NOT THREE GODS but you never accept it (and its a bit of a contradiction when you also say they believe in one God). The understanding I have is that the trinity is not 3 people nor is the essence different (on a higher level the essence maybe different). What it represents {for me on a religious/theology sense} is the Oneness in "a" person, or if you what to take it for God - the Oneness in God. Now is the essence of water different when it is in the form of ice/solid, liquid and steam ? This is also a trinity. Is water three different people or one? While there are three aspects to water it is still one enity, namely that of H20. While water can be in 3 forms it still is water, it is still H20, is it not? As for people, the mind body and spirit/soul. Now is the essence of people different when they are in mind, body and spirit? This is also a trinity. Is a person three different people or one? We, humans, as individuals have three aspects to human being, it is still one enity one individual. We have 3 forms to being human while being one, being in Oneness with our humaness. (not sure if humaness is a word).
Ok You saying that the Holy Spirit is not from God but from Gabriel ? If so, I can understand that since Archangel Gabriel (supposdely) came to Muhammed, and this is perhaps why you see Gabriel as Holy Spirit, the One who spoke to Muhammed. (Aside question, even though the teachings came from God, did Gabriel came everytime to relay it?) Where does the spirit of Archangel Gabriel come from ? As I understand it, the Holy spirit resides in all of us, it is that which gives us life, life is holy, it is God's breath that he breathes in us.
I can see that but 'spirit' is different. and I'm not talking about ghostly or anglic spirit appearance.
I don't understand the bit, to fulfill a prophecy ? I thought also in the Christian sense, it is not the need of God to have a son but for the need of the world/humanity. That is why God chose Jesus to redeem and know God and the way. (as for redeem I have my own issues about that but sticking to what is meant here). The Trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, they are all connected, okay so that term the trinity was coined after Jesus, but look at on the deeper level, the spiritual level metaphysical level and not the material and surface level. The Father who is God - our creator. The son to me is not the son literally from God as you think Yes its meant for Jesus, he taught the way the truth, God spoke to Jesus. (Didn't Jesus say he was God? and say I am the way the truth, a small factor that muslims seem to over look when discussing the trinity) But also The Son is US, God's creation, humanity. Jesus represented who we can be of the highest level. And as Jesus is a son of God yes I can understanding why the 'Sonship' is there in the trinity, as said He did show us the way. The son is God's way. The Holy Spirit - life/energy that which resides in all of us including God and all other creatures. The essence of God is in all of US, what makes up God also makes us up. We are all connected, we are all one, we are made up of energy and matter, some say that matter is star dust, God is one, God is made up of energy (and matter). Sometimes I have to wonder what you understand of "Oneness". But that can be for another thread. The Trinity I think is not so hard to understand, if you take it literally as I see you do, then yes it can be difficult to understand and I would be with you since we are all God's sons and daughters NOt only Jesus. Okay I am going to put a twist on things: The Father - God, The Son - God in matter and the Holy spirit - 'Being'. One entity. |
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 ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Israfil
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Posted: 04 April 2005 at 6:44pm |
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Angel since you have posted a long response I will break each individual paragraph up into sections so that you can get the fullest understanding from my response. In one instance you said in the following: ��Why do you separate it, why do you think its two people, I think this is a mistake on muslims part, of course you are going to get 2 people / 3 Gods if you separate the concept and see it this way. Christians keep telling there is ONLY ONE GOD NOT THREE GODS but you never accept it (and its a bit of a contradiction when you also say they believe in one God)." First off let me point out to you that there is no contradiction on Muslims when we say Christians believe in One God as we Muslims believe that God is the Creator of all people regardless of religious creed. Now that your point in that is refued we can move on. You mentioned if Muslims view the trinity we see this as literal (from the impression I get from this paragraph) that the persons existing within the trinity are persons other than God hence the impression of three gods. First off you never heard it from me that I considered the other persons in the trinity as "gods" you have made this mistake perhaps getting this impression from another Muslim, not me. However I did say that the essence of God's absolute being does not consist of two other persons. Reason? Because the essence of such an absolute being, such an infinite being is one because to say "Son" and "Holy Spirit" are contradictions to what Muslim Philosophers and even the Jewish Philosopher, Moses Maimonides says which is " Properties of absolute." Since we consider God as absolute and as one, if we say that he consist of two other persons unified under the absolute we are creating additional necessities to that absolute essence. We note that God has many qualities as the prime Artisan, the Creator, the source of existence. Even with these, these are only apprehensions through doctrinal understanding and in no necessitate the Oneness of God. For instance I may posses the properties of existence since I am a living being but it does not necessitate me being only one person which is Israfil get it? Qualities are superadditions aim to a person but do not reflect on the individuality of that person they are just qualities. For the Islamic perspective Son is denied under the impression of God's Sovereign state, and the power to not need a Son to do his will. God is not in need of a"Holy Spirit" even though God is Holy, God does not possess the properties of a spirit because he is the Artisan that wills "spirits" into existence. However the understanding of Holy Spirit comes from God's influence or will upon his creation. However true this is, being Holy and Spirit are additonal properties towards God to describe his will, or his presence which are not neededin Monotheistic theology. Angel you obviously are not fully knowledgable of the Trinity so let me give you some brief background. The Trinity consist of principles in a type of symbolic Hierarchy. With Father, being Allah or the Creator as the Godhead, Son or Jesus as the intermediary and Holy Spirit as the will of God. All these compositions under the trinitarian principle exist as one unity under the person of God. But as I have explained before in the principle of absolution this violates monotheistic theology. Again pesons other than God (Father, Daddy etc) are nothing more than additonal qualities of God that are not needed and are not logical. Angel you said: "Now is the essence of water different when it is in the form of ice/solid, liquid and steam ? This is also a trinity. Is water three different people or one? While there are three aspects to water it is still one enity, namely that of H20. While water can be in 3 forms it still is water, it is still H20, is it not?" Angel my science major LOL Water comes in three (CORRECT) forms solid, liquid and gaseous. You mentioned ice when ice is apart of being a solid. You mention steam which is partially correct but the correct term is gaseous which is Hydrogen and Oxygen. Regardless, the point is though Water comes in three forms you are making the impression that water by itself is of one form. But if one views the molecular level of water its compositions consist of one or more forms which is two Hydrogen atoms and one Oxygen atom. Since to make water one needs both the gases its for our benefit to understand that the essentials of water are these two atoms because if by themselves results in just being a gas. though we are slightly off topic my point is that water is a bad example because it needs both Hydrogen atoms and Oxygen atoms to become water. This is not the point you are not trying to bring up to defend your point in the case of the trinitarian principle because this is really a bad example. Unless, you are saying God needs the other persons within the trinity to become a unified being, if so then it contradict God's omnipotence. Angel said: "Is a person three different people or one? We, humans, as individuals have three aspects to human being, it is still one enity one individual. We have 3 forms to being human while being one, being in Oneness with our humaness. (not sure if humaness is a word).�� ��Ok You saying that the Holy Spirit is not from God but from Gabriel ? If so, I can understand that since Archangel Gabriel (supposdely) came to Muhammed, and this is perhaps why you see Gabriel as Holy Spirit, the One who spoke to Muhammed. (Aside question, even though the teachings came from God, did Gabriel came everytime to relay it?) Where does the spirit of Archangel Gabriel come from ? As I understand it, the Holy spirit resides in all of us, it is that which gives us life, life is holy, it is God's breath that he breathes in us.�� Angel you have a unique mind again, but sorry to see that you have yet to understand Islam truly I suggest going to amosque near you to get the fullest impression of Islam. *Sigh* Let me explain. The angerl Gabriel is from God he is considered a messenger or the Holy Spirit, Spirit in this concept can be interpreted as "Will of God" or "Spirit of God" depending on how you look at it. God's will and impression upon his creation comes in various signs, signs that include angels as well. As you say the Angel Gabriel (supposedly, which is not a hypothetical but truth) came to Muhammad but questioned whether it was the Angel or God speaking to Muhammad. Because Arabic and Hebrew are Languages that can easily become mixed up in certain words in english such as Holy Spirit e.t.c. the understanding is that God spoke through the Angel Gabriel such as an intermediary. Even when God spoke to Moses the Bible notes "The Angel of God in the burning bush" or "And Allah spoke to Moses through a veil" are symbolic references of some intermediary between God and man. Perhaps the understanding is that the mind of man cannot comprehend God in his entirety, nor could bare the sight of God, nor can comprehend the TRUE language of God. We should note that it does not contradict revelation that God uses intermediaries nor does it contradict God's ability to speak to man directly because we humans cannot identity what language God speaks in the first place. So in this respect we go with what revelation leaves us and our impression which is that God speaks to us in various signs, but more appropriately, through intermediaries. As you say the Holy Spirit resides in all of us, yes, the WILL OF GOD does reside in all of us because he willed for our existence and his glory is within all of life. PRAISE BE ALLAH LORD OF THE UNIVERSE! Angel said: I can see that but 'spirit' is different. and I'm not talking about ghostly or anglic spirit appearance. u don't see because the concept of Holy Spirit in Islam is different like the concept of soul is not like that of a spirit. For reference see what I have mentioned above. Angel: "I thought also in the Christian sense, it is not the need of God to have a son but for the need of the world/humanity. That is why God chose Jesus to redeem and know God and the way. (as for redeem I have my own issues about that but sticking to what is meant here)." The Father who is God - our creator. The son to me is not the son literally from God as you think Yes its meant for Jesus, he taught the way the truth, God spoke to Jesus. (Didn't Jesus say he was God? and say I am the way the truth, a small factor that muslims seem to over look when discussing the trinity) But also The Son is US, God's creation, humanity. Jesus represented who we can be of the highest level. And as Jesus is a son of God yes I can understanding why the 'Sonship' is there in the trinity, as said He did show us the way. The son is God's way. The Holy Spirit - life/energy that which resides in all of us including God and all other creatures. The essence of God is in all of US, what makes up God also makes us up. Angel with every passing paragraph you seemed more and more confused even though you try to make a logical defense for the trinity. The "Son" in the trinity is meant to be an essence of God. By Jesus being that word and God both (See ref. John 3:16) it was not intented in the council of the Nincene Creed that "Son" was also meant to mean humanity as well. You are just interpreting based on your own views since, of course your not religious nor belong to a religion. Please, if you plan to make a defense on a religious principle in which you, yourself are no an adherent of you should read on its history. You are also DEAD wrong to say what "makes up God, also makes us up." God is incorporeal and is composed of no physical substances nor is comprehensible to a degree to be composed of a substance. To do so would limit God in time and in space and is subject to decay and annihilation if God is like us, his creation. God is the infinite, the eternal, the Creator. Even TRUE Christians would argue that God is an incoporeal deity who has no form. But, if your point was intended for essence I would agree that we are apart of God's will because his essence exist within this world. But we are not linked with God in the sense that our essence is the same as his since the nature of our essence is created. The nature of God's essence is infinity and is not created so please be careful with your belief because you are picking and choosing.
Angel said: "God is one, God is made up of energy (and matter). Sometimes I have to wonder what you understand of "Oneness". But that can be for another thread."
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Nausheen
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Posted: 04 April 2005 at 8:29pm |
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem, Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim, Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah, I was requested to review this thread When, first I saw it there were 4-5 posts, and now there are 4 pages. Obviously it was not possible for me to read everything in detail. A few comments tho... 1. There is less disrespect thrown from the two parties, than is been felt, so please have a control on your feelings. When you voice your opinions publicly, please be brave enough to take critisisms. 2. If possible be mild and soft in your critisisms. Sometimes a mild tone has more emphasis than a harsh voice. 3. There is no need for anyone to change his/her screen names (unless one wishes to). You may be misleading, but your style is your signature, which people will decipher eventually. 4. When addressing Allah, please consider not saying "His person" he is not a human, thus does not have a personality. He is an entity, beyond perception and description (in totality) by moratals. 5. this is my favorite: Imam Ghazzali's interpretation of 99 names of Allah and the trinity - The name for God in islam is "Allah". This is very unique in the sense that it is not a linguistic derivative of any term in any language, it is all encompassing in expressing the attributes and qualities of the Creator,and much beyond these attributes. When one says ar Rahman, or ar Rahim, or as Sabir, or al Hayy, Awwal, akhir and so on, these names represent one of the attributes of God but not all. Some of the 99 names are such that these qualities can be found in humans as well, while others are exclusive to Allah. However, this does mean when one says As sabir, one is relating to something outside of the essence of Allah. It is the same and only one essence of Allah, which can be partially described as As sabir. The difference i see between trinity and 99 names is this .... for example if you say water, air, and soil, ...combined together, and it is this world. These three elements individually are not planet earth, but when combined together, make this planet ... one planet. This is trinity. When you describe the attributes of this planet, you may say - it is round. It revolves round the sun. It sees the change of days and nights. it has gravity. It is hot inside but cool on the surface .... do you see the difference? All these examples do not "combine" together to make the planet complete. instead their function is very different ... each of these describes one of the many qualities of the planet. The 99 names perform the same function to help explain the creator, who cannot be understood, or explained completely without these ... or rather I should say, who cannot be explained completely even with these. These are my two cents on the thread, which look like ten, am sorry for that Maa salaama, Nausheen |
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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
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Angel
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Posted: 05 April 2005 at 2:39am |
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hey that's good didn't I give some other examples similar?
Good, also
That's ok, afterall we are women, few words turn into a book |
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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angel
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Posted: 05 April 2005 at 5:05am |
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Israfil, I have printed to read better off screen.
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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Nausheen
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Posted: 07 April 2005 at 5:45am |
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Thanks for the input Angel btw, I wanted to welcome you back, in the very thread which someone suggested should not have been there in the first place, but I dont know where its burried in the pile of all the "intellectual" talk from the opposite gender So I use this place instead to say to you ... am happy ur back. Hope u enjoyed ur short break Peace, Nausheen |
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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
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Angel
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Posted: 07 April 2005 at 8:50am |
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Thanks Nausheen You talking about the thread: be back soon ?, that is in general dicussions |
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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Israfil wrote:
