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Okay, please provide just some of those "thousands of factual errors in the Bible."
BIBLICAL INCONSISTENCIES
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.
GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)
GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)
GE 2:4, 4:26,12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.
EX 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.
GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.
GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.
GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.
GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.
GE 4:15, DT 32:4, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him." These are just a few. There are many more, if you want.
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Greetings Ahmad. Sorry it has taken so long to respond but have had problems with my mail program. Hopefully it is working now:
AJ: Hello BaruchHaba! I don�t find any reply of yours to my questions on page 33 where I specifically asked 1. So you agree that Adam was deceived/beguiled by the Satan through Satan�s lies.
BH: Of course Adam and Eve were deceived by Satan! Satan was a fallen angel and still deceives men today. However, that does not negate the responsibility that Adam and Eve had to obey God. The �devil made me do it� excuse just does not hold water.
AJ: 2. For my second sentence, you didn�t answer me. I asked this specific question because you refuted my understanding by saying It's important to understand that Adam and Eve didn't have their sin nature when they were tempted by Satan; they had a free will that chose disobedience over obedience.
BH: Correct!
AJ: This response of yours bring us back to point No 1, where you admitted that it was basically Satan�s sin of deceiving by lying to Adam and Eve, though they should not have listened to him and thus, faulted because of their sinful nature [but you corrected me Free Will].
BH: This sentence is rather convoluted, but you seem to have misunderstood me. Satan, as the chief fallen angel, is evil and his end will be the lake of fire. So, God has and will deal with Satan. But Adam and Eve�s sin, beguiled by Satan and their own lust (to be as God and have the knowledge of good and evil), was disobedience and the result was dying spiritually, losing fellowship with God, and resulted in owning a sin nature with the knowledge of good and evil.
AJ: So can you please define these terms before you use them, such as �sinful nature�, �free will�, �burden of sin�, �innocence� etc. This is essential so that we both be on the same page and remain consistent in their usage. So, I am still awaiting your response on this line of arguments. Now coming to your recent post.
BH: The words you want me to define are �self-defined� and/or have been previously explained by me. However, I would suggest that if you sincerely want more of an exposition of their meanings, you can find any number of sources on the internet to satisfy you.
BH 1. My responses are provided to give as much detail and attribution as possible so you can check matters out for yourself in the biblical Holy Scriptures.
2. Quoting out of a book is your answer to providing historical sources, and then picking a comment that has no context? Okay. However, regardless of the time between when the disciples walked with Jesus and then wrote about him, time does not negate their eyewitness account.
AJ: NO, I don�t agree. I referred you to the book which provides much details about the anonymous character of the 4 canonical books in the Bible. The excerpt is just a glimpse of it. If you think it�s out of context, I would rather encourage you to refute and correct me with your understanding. Here is another reference, just in case http://www.thenazareneway.com/apocrypha.htm
Here is an excerpt from this webpage �.The four Gospels are actually anonymously written. They do not purport to have been written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and their titles do not affirm it�..Concerning their authorship the Rev. Dr. Hooykaas says: "They appeared anonymously. The titles placed above them in our Bibles owe their origin to a later ecclesiastical tradition which deserves no confidence whatever"
BH: I looked at that website and discount it totally as having any scholastic credibility at all. I wonder that Muslims are so easily beguiled by works that attack the Bible, but since it serves the Muslim agenda, it is not that surprising. No doubt you have been taught from an early age about how �corrupt� the Holy Bible is. I guess you really need to believe that in order to believe the Quran.
BH: 3. I already gave you the biblical references right out of Genesis about Isaac being the son of promise. That's because Ishmael, the eldest son, was born of Hagar the slave, and not of Sarah, Abraham's wife. You can read it for yourself with the references previously provided.
AJ: That is exactly the mistake in the Bible. The eldest son of Father Abrahim was Ishmael, from the genealogy point of view; slave or otherwise is immaterial.
BH: Sorry, Ahmad, but Ishmael being the eldest (as I previously stated) is what is immaterial, because God called Isaac the �Son of Promise�. Obviously you cannot believe that because it would undermine your whole religion.
BH: 4. Okay, if Islam does not teach hatred for the Jews (or Christians or "infidels), does it teach Muslims to love the People of the Book?
AJ: Islam distinguishes Jews and Christians from the rest of the lot by calling them as the People of the Book. While Quran admonishes the people of the book for various reasons, but it also recognizes the fact that there could be many among them who are on the right path and for them there is no fear and their reward is with Allah. In the same way, Quran calls them to come to a common term, that we should all recognize that there is only one God and no other god, and do good deeds to please the God. Can we do that?
BH: You asked, �Can we do that?� I�ve stated many times that Christianity teaches there is only one God. However the hangup for Muslims is being unable to come to terms with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three Persons in One Godhead. And, since good deeds are anathema to a holy God and are but filthy rags, they do not save us, but actually condemn us! Therefore, our agreement stops at there being just one God. The Bible teaches that if you have the Son, you have eternal life. If you do not have the Son, the wrath of God abides on you. And rightly so because of the unfathomable cost for Jesus Christ to put on flesh for 33 years so he could be the sacrificial lamb, �Who takes away the sin of the world.�
BH 5. The Jews have made many contributions to the world. You can chose not to discuss that; however, I feel it is quite relevant, because the Jews are really at the center of so much that is going on in the world.
AJ: Yes, I agree with this statement, but it is just a partial and not a complete statement. So, if you are interested in discussing about the Jews, you are most welcome. But for that I would suggest to open up another topic.
BH: Yes, unless it has already been a topic of discussion.
BH: 6. Muslims believe they came from the seed of Ishmael, do they not? That's not in dispute. What is disputed is that Ishmael wasn't the son of promise from Abraham. Isaac was, and subsequently, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was manifested as the ultimate Son of Promise to the world through the seed of Isaac. Obviously, that documented Scriptural fact would make Muslims very uncomfortable. All I can tell you is to check it out for yourself. I gave you the biblical references.
AJ: First of all, I have shown you how the Bible is genealogically in error about the eldest son of Abrahim, i.e. it was Ishmael and not Isaac. You can bring all your prophesies or argument of slave wife etc to claim anything, but the fact would just remain the fact. Secondly, unlike the doctrine of Christianity, the issue about the sons of Abrahim are of least importance for the Muslims, as for as their faith is concerned. Therefore, the Muslims would not fight with you over the need of Jealousy but for the want of reason and the correction of your own Biblical error.
BH: As already stated, Ishmael was the eldest, but not the �Son of Promise.� Ishmael is one of the underpinnings in Islam, because if you replace him with Isaac, your whole religion will collapse. Genealogy is extremely important in biblical matters.
BH: 7. Jesus was perfect, Ahmad. He had no sin in him and that is why he was able to be the perfect Sin Offering for the sins of the world. I know you don't believe that, but that is because you have been given Isa in your Quran and not the biblical, historical, Jesus of Nazareth. His sinlessness was what qualified him to be the perfect sacrifice. Since he was the Son of God in the flesh, he is the only man who has ever been sinless since the fall of Adam.
AJ: All I would prefer to say is �Come to common terms� with us that there is only one God and no other god and we will not associate any god with Him, in any way. Then there is no issue between us. Can we do it?
BH: I provided my answer above. It has not changed, and never will.
BH: 8. If you believe you can find forgiveness for your sins by begging for it and doing good deeds, I'm sorry. You simply have no way, Ahmad, of knowing that you begged long or hard enough or did enough good deeds to obtain forgiveness. That is a tragedy because once man enters eternity, there is no way to go back and give it another go. Eternity is settled on this side, not on the other side.
AJ: Just to repeat my reply, Allah loves Justice and would not let the honest and sincere people suffer. If this is true, I am relieved. If I am poor/disabled/handicapped/incapacitated person, Allah knows my state, therefore my test/exam to answer about my deeds would proportionately be less severe than those who are more rich/abled etc people. Similarly, if I am blessed more with lot of goodies by Allah in this world, I have to be answerable more than the others. Simple Justice would work; but of course, if I make more efforts to make more personal connection with Allah, no doubt His mercy beyond Justice is always there.
BH: As I�ve stated many times, you have absolutely no assurance that you can perform deeds of sufficient quantity and quality to secure forgiveness and eternal life. If I�m wrong about Islam having no benchmark by which the deeds of Muslims can be weighed, please provide me the sura and verse.
BH: 9. So, you can tell God Almighty that his requirement for blood sacrifice is of no use to him? That's quite a charge against him who made heaven and earth and all that is in it.
AJ: This is in the Quran and I find it logical as well. It doesn�t make sense to waste blood of a living being for the expatiation of human sins except that human must realize that this is his own sacrifice in terms of his resources being spent as the atonement of his own sins. Therefore, the blood of the animal becomes just one of the many ways to spend in charity for the atonement of the human sins.
BH: The ways of God are higher than the ways of man, whether they seem �logical� or not.
BH: Genesis lays it all out, Ahmad, but you have been taught differently. It all comes down to whether you believe in the original Holy Scriptures or the Quran. Each man chooses his own path of belief.
AJ: Of course true. But to a very honest person like you, how can you trust a book whose authenticity is on the order of +/- a century with anonymous authorship? Decide for yourself.
BH: The Bible has withstood the test of time. That it continues to be attacked, attests to its authenticity.
BH: 10. The Genesis reference, which I thought was previously provided about Adam and Eve being covered by the skin of an animal that was slain, is here:
��.21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.
AJ: Here the use is in literal sense. How do you construe out of it, to cover the sins that you alluded about?
BH: In order to cover Adam and Eve�s nakedness with the skin of an animal, that animal had to first be slain.
BH: 11. You don't believe in eternal wrath? Hell-fire, Jahannam, is clearly discussed in your Quran. Eternal forgiveness is self-explanatory.
AJ: Please do not quote out of context. �There is no eternal wrath on the sons of man� was the phrase that I used to oppose your idea of original sin, to which I am still waiting for your response to understand it. Secondly, the opposite of Hell-fire, Jahannam is not �eternal forgiveness� but �eternal peace� or Jannah. I hope you know the difference. Right?
BH: I did not quote anything here out of the Quran; I merely mentioned that Johanna is discussed in your book. However, I now will share with you what the Quran does say about hell (and it is not �eternal peace.�):
�Our Lord! Surely, whom You admit to the Fire, indeed You have disgraced him, and never will the wrongdoers find any helpers.� (Quran 3:192)
�Know they not that whoever opposes God and His Messenger (Muhammad), certainly for him will be the Fire of Hell to abide therein? That is the extreme disgrace.� (Quran 9:63)
The Names of Hell Hell Fire has different names in Islamic texts. Each name gives a separate description. Some of its names are:
Jaheem � fire - because of its blazing fire.
Jahannam - Hell - because of the depth of its pit.
Ladthaa - blazing fire - because of its flames.
Sa�eer - blazing flame - because it is kindled and ignited.
Saqar - because of the intensity of its heat.
Hatamah - broken pieces or debris - because it breaks and crushes everything that is thrown into it.
Haawiyah - chasm or abyss - because the one who is thrown into it is thrown from top to bottom
Paradise and Hell Presently Exist and are Eternal, Hell exists at the present time and will continue to exist forever. It will never pass away and its inhabitants will remain in it forever. Traditional Muslim belief is that no one will come out of Hell except sinful believers who believed in the Oneness of God in this life and believed in the specific prophet sent to them. The polytheists and unbelievers will reside in it forever. This belief has been held from classical times and is based on clear verses of the Quran and confirmed reports from the Prophet of Islam. The Quran speaks of Hell in the past tense and states that it has already been created:
�And fear the Fire which is prepared for the disbelievers.� (Quran 3:131)
The Prophet of Islam said:
�When any of you dies, he is shown his position (in the Hereafter) morning and evening. If he is one of the people of Paradise, he is shown the place of the people of Paradise. If he is one of the people of Hell, he is shown the place of people of Hell. He is told, �this is your position, until God resurrects you on the Day of Resurrection.� (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim)
BH: 12. It is strange that the Apostle Paul is so deriled by Muslims. It may have been Paul who wrote of Melchizedek in the Book of Hebrews or it could have been another author. I already discussed the ambiguity of authorship for that book. For the Christian believing in the inerrancy of the Bible, we take the whole book and not parts of it. Once a part of something is questioned, the whole of it becomes suspect.
AJ: Okay, but then I do see you quoting partially from the Bible and not the whole of it. Once I show you the saying of Jesus on one part eg �lost sheep of Israel�, you would immediately bring me a counter statement from the other part of it. So, which one to believe, if none is reliable. So, all you rely on is a conjecture. Hmm!! Conviction of being right merely based on conjecture, is not a very stable ground to stand on. So, I once again invite you to please come to common terms, which you know it without doubt without conjecture and that is. There is no god but God, the only God who has no son nor is He anyone�s son. This was the creed of the sons of Abrahim, Isaac and Ishmeal, both. Rest everything is based upon conjecture to which you may like to spend your whole life sifting out the truth, that is your own choice.
BH: No, you do not understand what I am saying, Ahmad. I was talking about if any part of the Bible is questioned (which I don�t), then the whole Book can be questioned. Because I believe the whole Bible to be the Word of God, I can quote any part of it that is germane to whatever is being discussed.
BH: 13. Scripture clearly states it was Isaac and not Ishmael who was saved from Abraham's knife.
AJ: The eldest son was saved, at least we agree on this. Right? Who so ever he might be, for Muslims it is of little importance.
BH: Yes, of course Ishmael, Abraham�s eldest son, was saved and his descendants became a large nation. However, Ishmael was not the son of promise, through whom would come the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ. He came through the line of Isaac, of course.
BH: 14. You didn't answer my question about Muhammad supposedly splitting the moon. I don't believe the question to be childish, only the premise. You still have not clarified at all about what you mean about "God's self-deception."
AJ: I told you that splitting of moon is of little consequence, if at all it is to any degree, as part of my faith in Islam. However, for you, the doctrine of the original sin and then the theory of god�s own blood sacrifice by coming down on earth out of a necessity/compulsion (the �only� way) to save the mankind from the eternal wrath of the original sin, is like a story in which god deceiving himself. This story is against the very definition of God, the Lord of the Universe, the Decision maker of the day of the judgment.
BH: Muhammad supposedly splitting the moon is part of your Muslim faith, as you state, even if it is of �little consequence.� (If such a feat is of little consequence, what else is of little consequence in the Quran?) How did Muhammad split the moon, who put it back together again, and please cite the Quran references.
BH: 15. "Sin qua non", of course, should be "sine qua non". Typo.
BH: 16. It's good to know that Jesus' sinless, fatherless (humanly speaking) birth is believed by Muslims. That's a good start. Jesus is the eternal Son of God. That, of course, is what Christianity is centered on and I ask no Muslim to believe that. But to relegate Jesus to the status of mere man and prophet is the worse insult one could heap upon the Son of God and God the Father.
AJ: The only thing you know about, with a little bit of certainty from your Bible, is that Jesus was in a human form on this earth. So, if you err in not acknowledging him as the Son of God, is yet excusable as compared with the fact that God is only one and you have made a profane accusation against him by bringing a creature equal to the status of the Creator. Decide for yourself which path you would like to choose? Look at it from the Infinite God�s. Secondly, by glorifying Jesus, the son of man, as a mighty Prophet of God, and then associating all the powers in the forms of Miracles that he performed on the behest of God, is more reasonable approach. So, all I am asking you is to leave the path of obscurity and follow which is clearly known.
BH: What is �reasonable� to man is often foolishness to God, is it not? Reason may be included in faith, but one cannot �reason� himself to heaven. My faith is in the Bible, the Word of God, and in that Book Jesus Christ is shown in the OC and NC both to be the sinless, spotless Son of God, who paid the penalty for my sins and provided a way for me to spend eternity with Him. Yes, Ahmad, there is only one God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not three separate Gods, and that is the unfortunate hangup for Muslims. They are three in one. I pray that millions of Muslims the world over will recognize Jesus Christ for who he is and accept him as their personal Savior. Nothing else will provide you with forgiveness and eternal life. In God's eyes, all your deeds are but filthy rags. God took the initiative in saving mankind from eternal death by sending his Son to pay for our sins. If anyone tries to get to heaven by his so-called "good deeds" or any other way, he is a but a thief and a robber and will find himself doomed to eternal destruction.
BH: 17. BTW, you never responded to my question, "Okay, Ahmad, what are your "exceptions" where it is okay for a Muslim to bring intentional hurt or pain to a fellow human being by submitting to the Will of God? I am not speaking in terms of war." I am still waiting for your answer......
AJ: Oh, I thought I gave you the reply. Nevertheless I say it again. The exceptions are the Prophets eg the famous sacrifice of the eldest son of our Father Abrahim.
BH: That would be a correct answer, but you have the wrong son of Abraham. It was Isaac, the son of promise, on the altar. Peace to you, brother.
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The Original Sin
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