The Original Sin

AhmadJoyia: Canonization through the council of Nicea over several decades at least, if not centuries, is well documented in Britannica Encyclopedia. On the contrary, surprisingly enough that your reference doesn't even mention of this council. For more comprehensive knowledge, here are few references that you may like to read through: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
and http://www.britannica.com/event/Council-of-Nicaea-Christianity-325
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Yes, of course, the Council of Nicea is well-known. Actually, there were two Councils of Nicea. The link I provided (at the Canonization section) provides some history on what had taken place prior to the 325CE Council. I found it interesting.

The following are the verses about the angel Gabriel:

Luke 1:19
And the angel answered and said to him, �I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.

Luke 1:26
[ Christ�s Birth Announced to Mary ] Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth...

The Saint wrote: kingskid wrote: Okay, Saint, I see you may be trying to base your interpretation of what is original sin on the Biblical scriptures you cherry-picked.  Ok, tell me what did I leave out? However, if you do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God, why would you use it to debunk what you don't believe in anyway? I did it to show you that the Bible is inconsistent. One part says something and the other part opposes it. And the Quran gives us a criterion that if anything is from other than Allah it is sure to have discrepancies?   If it is because you are attempting to persuade me from my own scriptures, it would only work if you did not take verses out of context and twist them to fit into your own beliefs.  You aren't the only Muslim on this site that does this, but it is to no avail when the context is ignored.The concept of original sin, or man's inherent sin nature, goes back before the serpent in the Garden. I do not like to win arguments for personal glory. I am a slave of Allah. Therefore, I try to present facts to the best of my knowledge. However, if you feel I have quoted out of context, you are welcome to show me and correct me. As regards the 'earliest source' of the so-called Original Sin, I shall be grateful if you could add to my knowledge. Please tell me.   It began in Gen. 2:16-17, "<span id="en-NIV-47" ="text="" gen-2-16"=""><sup ="versenum"="">16 And the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord</span> God commanded the man, �You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;</span> <span id="en-NIV-48" ="text="" gen-2-17"=""><sup ="versenum"="">17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.�</span>  Adam and Eve disobeyed and they died, not physically of course, but spiritually.  They lost not only their innocence, but more importantly, they lost fellowship with God and were driven out of His presence.  None of the other scriptures you quote pertain to original sin.  And, the Matthew, Mark and Luke scriptures you quote simply do not talk about the sinlessness of little children, but about their simple faith and ability to believe.  Something adults often struggle with. I think you failed to prove that the idea of the Original Sin predates the serpent incident. As to the OT and how their sins were atoned for, on the Day of Atonement, the Jewish high priest went into the temple to offer sacrifice for his sins first and then for the sins of the people.  The sacrificial Lamb that he offered was an archetype of Yeshua, Who was to come, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.  I especially like the J.B. Phillips translation of Rom. 5:15:  " <span id="en-PHILLIPS-1873" ="text="" rom-5-15"=""><sup ="versenum"="">15 But the gift of God through Christ is a very different matter from the �account rendered� through the sin of Adam. For while as a result of one man�s sin death by natural consequence became the common lot of men, it was by the generosity of God, the free giving of the grace of one man Jesus Christ, that the love of God overflowed for the benefit of all men.</span>"  The very doctrine of atonement is severely questionable! It is an inconsistency between the OT and the NT. Invented no doubt by later writers of the Bible as ordered by mortal men to write that which was invented to change the word of God. You know that the OT is absolutely clear on the issue. Saying that the son must not bear the inequity of the father. Therefore, the idea of the OS is clearly invented by rewriters of the Bible with the objective of raising the status of Jesus PBUH to that of more-than-a -man. Yeshua did not arrive too late to save the Jews; they had the Day of Atonement, which looked forward to the cross.  For the last two thousand years, Christians look back to the cross and Yeshua's sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection.Yeshua was never raised to the status of a god.  He was God clothed in humanity from His conception.  John 1:1-18 How could Jesus PBUH save nations that preceded him? Your notions are not consistent with the idea you are trying to convey. That he was a universal saviour. The earlier nations had not even heard of doctrines like the OS, Cross, Atonement and so on. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. This still does not make him God, does it? 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. Yet, Jesus PBUH said about John:Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God� 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband�s will, but born of God. We are children of God. But not in the sense of being sired by Him. He is our creator, as such we are His children. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Fiction, more likely! 15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, �This is the one I spoke about when I said, �He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.�) So, who is right, Jesus PBUH or John? 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Why couldn't grace have come through Moses or Muhammad PBUTB? 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." This is a self-contradictory statement. Because if no one has seen God how could Jesus PBUH be seen?

agree without your suggestion

Ahmad: Can you tell us who's eye witness account is this?

C'mon Ahmad: any independent observers of Gabriel in the cave ?


@Caringheart: Could you try to clarify your position concerning what I wrote about Trinity ?

Airmano

Edited by airmano - 12 January 2016 at 12:07pm

AhmadJoyia wrote:   While for the Muslims, Quran is the source of this info about the Holy Spirit, but what about my Christian Brothers? What is their source of info, please?

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Regarding the Holy Spirit, and wherewith do Christians have knowledge...

recorded in the book of John, chapter 14, the words of Yshwe:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Here when Yshwe says, 'ye know him for he dwelleth with you', He is referring to Himself who is currently with them, and who has walked with them;
 and when He says, 'and shall be in you', He means that He shall always be with those who seek and know Him.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Yshwe was referring to the coming resurrection.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
In other words they would have understanding when the Holy Spirit comes to them... and this happens on Pentacost Sunday, as recorded in the book of Acts, chapter 2.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you.
If ye loved me, ye would rejoice,
because I said, I go unto the Father:
 for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
The prince of this world cometh, meaning the prince of darkness would have rule of the world in the absence of Christ.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
and He says, so that the world may know, let us go hence(let us go forth) and let the Father's will be fulfilled(done)... as the Father commands so the Son obeys.


recorded in the book of John, chapter 15, the words of Yshwe:

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.



and in the book recording the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 2:

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

and you should read (the importance of), the whole of chapter 2, of the book of Acts.
The Holy Spirit came to the Apostles on Pentacost Sunday, just as Yshwe had promised.

We as Christians know of the Holy Spirit because of the things which Yshwe spoke to His Apostles.
We know of the Holy Spirit because the early Christians saw all that Yshwe spoke of come to pass.



Edited by Caringheart - 12 January 2016 at 4:38pm