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AhmadJoyia 
Senior Member
Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
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 Posted: 02 February 2016 at 10:28am |
 airmano wrote:
Ahmad:
It was first compiled in the book form during the reign of 1st Caliph Hazrat Abu Bakr. |
That's not what I understood. I thought it was Uthman.
What makes you say so ?
Airmano |
Oh, I think all my discussions with Ron Webb were closely monitored by you as well. If not, I can only wish somehow Ron might help you, here.
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Caringheart
Senior Member
Joined: 02 March 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 2991
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Posted: 02 February 2016 at 2:06pm |
The Saint wrote:
I would be very interested to hear from you what you consider to be proofs of the said plurality revealed in your scriptures. Because there is no such thing mentioned in the Quran. |
Greetings The Saint, I answered that question on Jan. 19th, page 40. 
The Saint wrote:
The most credible proof is that from God. If you can provide proof of a divine nature I will have no problem in accepting it.
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- Born of a virgin. Why?
- Died and rose from the dead 3 days later, just as He prophesied to do. 'destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up again' (the Word of Yshwe to the Pharisees)
- Performed miracles. Who can perform miracles except with the power of God?
- Forgave sins. Who can forgive sins, except God Himself? Why did Yshwe make a point of saying, "your sins are forgiven", and not "you are healed"?
The Saint wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
Didn't the descendants of Abram inherit (i.e., take) the land of Canaan when the people led out of Egypt by Moses finally crossed over? (recorded in the book called Numbers, and in the book of Deuteronomy)
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Why then, is there an ongoing war between Abraham's descendents? Who are the real people whom the land belongs to? |
Why indeed. I will come to this later.
The Saint wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
referring to his descendants as being 'as numerous as the stars of heaven', to my mind, is poetic language.
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Poetic language? Really? This sentence alone, actually, proves who the real descendants of Abraham really are! Their sheer numbers speak for the Muslims. |
I can see why you might think that... but God also said to Ishmael...
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
Is it any wonder they have been fighting for generations, and still can not seem to leave off fighting?
The descendants of Abraham are indeed numerous.... read the account in Genesis, chapters 15, 22, and 26.... they are the Jews and the Ishmaelites (whoever they are... the arabs?)
They are brothers, and yet they fight one another all these generations later. Why?
... maybe God wanted us to learn...
to settle our own disputes...
to love one another, all people, as brothers...
That is, after all, what Yshwe (the new covenant) came to teach...
and I give unto you another commandment....
... then Muhammad comes along, taking things backward, undoing... ignoring the message of Yshwe Messiah (the Christ, the Savior)... Who was leading Muhammad... the Creator, or the destroyer?
The Saint wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
It seems to me that this is absolutely come true.
Are there not those from all nations that now call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord? (Jew, Christian, and Muslim) ... that are 'gathered unto it, unto the name of the Lord'?
and it will come to even greater fulfillment when Yshwe returns.
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No, that is not true at all. God's throne is above the heavens, definitely not on earth. And if you will consider this that the importance of Jerusalem was changed and Mecca was made the new Qibla. |
If this is so, then why do muslims fight for Jerusalem?
The Saint wrote:
Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. 16:28
You did not answer above? |
I did answer this. Yshwe's kingdom was established in the church, with the Disciples, on the day of Pentacost, just as promised by Yshwe. The kingdom of God is not housed in any building... it is the people that serve Christ, that are the kingdom of God. 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
(the Word of Yshwe, recorded in the book of Luke, chapter 17)
The Saint wrote:
Are you saying that the word has still not gone out....even after two thousand years? No, this is an unfulfilled prophecy.
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I am saying quite the opposite. One has only to look around at the world to know that this very prophesy is reaching fulfillment in our time.
The Saint wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
Yshwe 'established His kingdom' with the church, when He returned in the form of the Holy Spirit, to His Disciples.
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When did he do that? Can you give a reference from the Bible?
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Read the book of Acts, chapter 2, and the book of John, chapter 14 and chapter 16.
It was when the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, came to the Disciples on Pentacost.
The Saint wrote:
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, YHWH our God, YHWH is One.[e> 30 Love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with your entire mind and with all your strength.'
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and the second is like unto it... 'love one another as you would love yourself' The Word of Yshwe, book of Matthew, chapter 22
and, the Word of Yshwe, recorded in the book of John, chapter 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
asalaam and blessings to you,
CAringheart
Note: I would also refer you to my posts to AhmadJoyia on Jan. 31st. (My posts are always delayed by moderation censorship.  )
Edited by Caringheart - 03 February 2016 at 2:25pm
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Caringheart
Senior Member
Joined: 02 March 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 2991
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Posted: 02 February 2016 at 2:44pm |
airmano wrote:
Ahmad:
It was first compiled in the book form during the reign of 1st Caliph Hazrat Abu Bakr. |
That's not what I understood. I thought it was Uthman.
What makes you say so ?
Airmano |
Greetings Airmano, You might want to consult the link I shared with AhmadJoyia. http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php and my posts from Jan. 31. Peace and blessings to you, CH
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member
Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
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Posted: 03 February 2016 at 5:04am |
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The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 832
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Posted: 03 February 2016 at 5:56am |
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The Word of Yshwe Himself (recorded in the book of Matthew, chapter 28)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Hello CH
I am very happy you cited this verse to prove trinity. But....
This verse cannot be used to prove that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one for the following reasons: -
1. The same incident was recorded in the Gospel of Mark; however, the one in Mark does not contain the triune formula at all
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)
2. Nowhere in the Bible do we find Jesus using the triune formula, but always saying, "in my name"
You may see, for instance, Mark 9:37; 9:39; 16:17; John 14:14; 14:26; 15:16; 16:23.
3. None of the Apostles of the New Testament ever baptized in the name of the Trinity; rather, they baptized only in the name of Jesus Christ
This proves that none of the Apostles knew or ever heard of the triune formula.
You may see, for instance, Acts 2:38; 10:48; 8:5, 12, 16; 19:3, 5; Galatians 3:27; 1 Corinthians 1:13, 15; Romans 6:3.
4. Early Christians, such as scholars and historians (up to 350 years after Jesus� departure), gave a different text than what we have today whenever they quoted Matthew 28:19 in their writings
For example, when the Christian Historian Eusebius of Caesarea (a.k.a. Eusebius Pamphili) (c. AD 263 � 339), who�s called "Father of Church History," quoted Matthew 28:19 in his famous Ecclesiastical History, there was no triune formula in the verse.
The verse read:
Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you.[1>
He did not quote this verse in this form only once, but no less than 18 times in many of his works written between 300 and 336, namely in his long commentaries on the Psalms, on Isaiah, in his Demonstratio Evangelica and in his Theophany.
I can give you more evidence if still needed.
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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious
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airmano
Senior Member
Joined: 31 March 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 884
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Posted: 03 February 2016 at 8:23am |
Ahmad:
It [The Quran] was first compiled in the book form during the reign of 1st Caliph Hazrat Abu Bakr.
Airmano:
That's not what I understood. I thought it was Uthman. What makes you say so ?
Ahmad:
Greetings Airmano,You might want to consult the link I shared... http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php
Ahmad:
Oh, my fault if I missed your reference, however, this particular is about long page of more than eighty ahadith. Bro Airmano, pl do help me if you find any specific hadith which supports your allegation. Till now, I don't find it, I am so lazy....... |
I am so lazy...?? Sure checking references is work.
So your link (see above) you open, to 507 and 510 you go and what I stated you'll find.
Que la force soit avec toi:
Airmano
Edited by airmano - 03 February 2016 at 8:26am
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The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Caringheart
Senior Member
Joined: 02 March 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 2991
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Posted: 03 February 2016 at 2:09pm |
The Saint wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
The Word of Yshwe Himself (recorded in the book of Matthew, chapter 28)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
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Hello CH
I am very happy you cited this verse to prove trinity. But....
This verse cannot be used to prove that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one for the following reasons: -
3. None of the Apostles of the New Testament ever baptized in the name of the Trinity; rather, they baptized only in the name of Jesus Christ
This proves that none of the Apostles knew or ever heard of the triune formula.
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Greetings The Saint,
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said to me, On whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizes with the Holy Ghost.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
[A question re-surfaces for me once again, this morning.
Why is it that muslims are so intent and spend so much time seeking ways to speak against the Christian scriptures, and so very little in studying the qur'an? Why do so few seem able to share what is from the qur'an?
How much do they study their qur'an to see what there is in it?]
So I am understanding that the scripture of Matthew 28:19 expounded, or embellished, the words of Yshwe,
but there is no denying that Yshwe always spoke of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that He always spoke of these 3 in connection with Himself, and with God the Father.
It seems to me that whoever was writing down the book of Matthew merely sought to bring all elements together and make it more clear.
I offer this...
when John baptized Yshwe, who did he baptize in the name of? It must have been in the name of the Father (YHWH)
and when Yshwe was baptized the witness was of the Holy Spirit descending upon Him... and from where did the Holy Spirit come but from the Father to the Son? These 3 are One.
I know it is a thing hard for some to understand, but having read the book of Job I understand that it is not ours to understand all there is to understand about the Creator. It is a thing supernatural to us. Some things are out of our reach and simply must be accepted based on what we have been told from the scripture writings of the witnesses.
The Saint wrote:
You may see, for instance, Acts 2:38; 10:48; 8:5, 12, 16; 19:3, 5; Galatians 3:27; 1 Corinthians 1:13, 15; Romans 6:3.
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May I suggest to read Acts 8:5 all the way through to Acts 8:17.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of Elohim.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of YHWH, and the name of Yshwe Messiah, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Baptism involved these 3.
and read not just Acts 19:3 and 5, but read all of Acts 19 from 1 to 6.
Baptism in the name of Yshwe brings with it the Holy Spirit.
asalaam and blessings, CAringheart
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member
Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
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Posted: 05 February 2016 at 9:54am |
airmano wrote:
Ahmad:
It [The Quran] was first compiled in the book form during the reign of 1st Caliph Hazrat Abu Bakr.
Airmano:
That's not what I understood. I thought it was Uthman. What makes you say so ?
Ahmad:
Greetings Airmano,You might want to consult the link I shared... http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php
Ahmad:
Oh, my fault if I missed your reference, however, this particular is about long page of more than eighty ahadith. Bro Airmano, pl do help me if you find any specific hadith which supports your allegation. Till now, I don't find it, I am so lazy....... |
I am so lazy...?? Sure checking references is work.
So your link (see above) you open, to 507 and 510 you go and what I stated you'll find.
Que la force soit avec toi: Airmano |
Good! But how could you miss 509?
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