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AhmadJoyia 
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 Posted: 18 November 2016 at 12:58pm |
 Saved wrote:
I too have respect for your beliefs. I am just in dialogue and in search of someone who knows something I don't about the one and only True God. |
Dear brother, it is really good to know your purpose of search about "one and only Ture God"
Saved wrote:
Also keep in mind, that the topic of my thread is "Works vs Faith. IMO, according to Scripture Works will always lose to faith" because without faith it is impossible to please God.
When we truly have faith, it will most assuredly show by our works, but the person that depends on works over faith will find they have come short of the glory of God. |
I fully agree with you within the commonly understood meaning of faith (ie a belief on God). But then there is something more to it where people who don't have a faith has some form of faith and we call them atheists. So, in essence, even their works are also based on their own defined faith or whatever they call it eg universal humanism etc. Thus, your question is kind of redundant when I summarize that all Works are faith based, and there is hardly anyone who can disagree with you. But was it really that you wanted to ask? I don't think so.
What is important to know is how can one assure salvation in the life hereafter? Through Work or Faith? To answer this question, IMHO, Being a Muslims (ie Faith) is essential or necessary, but not a sufficient condition and Neither are the Good works. The assurance of Salvation is only through the HOPE in gaining the Mercy of God=Allah by being always repenting upon his bad works=sins. The Mercy of Allah is only for those who are humble (and not arrogant) and ask forgiveness of their sins till their last breath on this earth.
Saved wrote:
I believe God loves all of us and wants us to come to the knowledge of Truth. Jesus said: "I am the Truth..."
Regards,
Al |
Yes, my brother!! It is exactly for this reason for the knowledge of Truth, that I may ask you to walk us through the historical evolution of Biblical books, that you of course quote them as the ultimate source of Truth whereby looking at their authenticity as original containing divinely inspired message. Can you name any single book including both OT and NT (other than of St Paul) that contain 100% original message without doubt, as per your own research and within your understanding of your own faith?
Best regards
Edited by AhmadJoyia - 18 November 2016 at 1:01pm
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DavidC
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Posted: 18 November 2016 at 1:38pm |
AhmadJoyia wrote:
DavidC wrote:
Matthew 7:21
�Not everyone who says to me, �Lord, Lord,� will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. |
Excellent quote my brother DavidC which, IMHO, clearly shows the following:
1) Jesus, while he was physically on earth, his Father=God=Allah was in heaven. When, where, and how, the merger of the two (or three )took place?
2) The essential requirement of fulfilling the "will" of Father=Allah. Can this requirement be different than the one required by Jesus? I don't think so, simply because Jesus was the specially selected messenger (we call it Prophet) of Father=Allah. Btw what is this requirement? Again, IMHO, the first and foremost requirement is (a) Believe in his Prophet hood. (b) Do=Work as is being told by the Prophet (Here it must be noted that this Work is always good work and never the bad ones).
So, coming to the topic of "Works vs Faith", it is always the combination of the two and not just one. How can anyone claim to believe in Jesus or Mohammad as the Prophet of Father=Allah, and does bad things that are not fulfilling the requirements of Father=Allah?
However, again IMHO, even if someone is not a believer, his good Works would not go unrewarded by the Father=Allah, as He is the ultimate MOST Just.
What do you say?
Best regards. |
1) The general Christian belief was that Christ always existed as an aspect of God. As Jesus, he set aside his divinity in order to experience suffering, fear, doubt, temptation, hunger - the human experiences an omnipotent God can not experience. Christians believe that Christ directly ascended into heaven some weeks after his resurrection and reassumed his divine status.
This is not unlike the common story of a prince who assumes a disguise in order to experience directly the world he rules.
2) Good deeds are required in Christianity. See the Epistle of James. However, we distinguish between an person who does good deeds simply because he is a decent person, and a person who does good deeds because he trusts in Christ and those good works are the natural product and evidence of his faith.
Islam and Christianity are very close here imho.
Edited by DavidC - 18 November 2016 at 1:39pm
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Saved
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Posted: 18 November 2016 at 7:39pm |
DavidC wrote:
AhmadJoyia wrote:
DavidC wrote:
Matthew 7:21
�Not everyone who says to me, �Lord, Lord,� will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. |
Excellent quote my brother DavidC which, IMHO, clearly shows the following:
1) Jesus, while he was physically on earth, his Father=God=Allah was in heaven. When, where, and how, the merger of the two (or three )took place?
2) The essential requirement of fulfilling the "will" of Father=Allah. Can this requirement be different than the one required by Jesus? I don't think so, simply because Jesus was the specially selected messenger (we call it Prophet) of Father=Allah. Btw what is this requirement? Again, IMHO, the first and foremost requirement is (a) Believe in his Prophet hood. (b) Do=Work as is being told by the Prophet (Here it must be noted that this Work is always good work and never the bad ones).
So, coming to the topic of "Works vs Faith", it is always the combination of the two and not just one. How can anyone claim to believe in Jesus or Mohammad as the Prophet of Father=Allah, and does bad things that are not fulfilling the requirements of Father=Allah?
However, again IMHO, even if someone is not a believer, his good Works would not go unrewarded by the Father=Allah, as He is the ultimate MOST Just.
What do you say?
Best regards. |
1) The general Christian belief was that Christ always existed as an aspect of God. As Jesus, he set aside his divinity in order to experience suffering, fear, doubt, temptation, hunger - the human experiences an omnipotent God can not experience. Christians believe that Christ directly ascended into heaven some weeks after his resurrection and reassumed his divine status.
This is not unlike the common story of a prince who assumes a disguise in order to experience directly the world he rules.
2) Good deeds are required in Christianity. See the Epistle of James. However, we distinguish between an person who does good deeds simply because he is a decent person, and a person who does good deeds because he trusts in Christ and those good works are the natural product and evidence of his faith.
Islam and Christianity are very close here imho.
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In Christianity we are only saved by God's grace through faith that works by love. If we believe like Muslims do that we have to add good deeds to the mercy of God to earn paradise, we are severed from Christ. According to the gospel there is no salvation outside of Christ. They are not close IMHO or according to the gospel. The difference is night and day or life and death.
Additionally, it is not possible to do the will of God not believing Jesus is the son of God and Lord! It is the Lord that puts in us the will to do according to his good pleasure. It is not what we do for God that counts; it is only what God does in and through us that counts by faith that works by love.
Edited by Saved - 18 November 2016 at 7:44pm
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AhmadJoyia
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Posted: 20 November 2016 at 1:33am |
DavidC wrote:
AhmadJoyia wrote:
DavidC wrote:
Matthew 7:21
�Not everyone who says to me, �Lord, Lord,� will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. |
Excellent quote my brother DavidC which, IMHO, clearly shows the following:
1) Jesus, while he was physically on earth, his Father=God=Allah was in heaven. When, where, and how, the merger of the two (or three )took place?
2) The essential requirement of fulfilling the "will" of Father=Allah. Can this requirement be different than the one required by Jesus? I don't think so, simply because Jesus was the specially selected messenger (we call it Prophet) of Father=Allah. Btw what is this requirement? Again, IMHO, the first and foremost requirement is (a) Believe in his Prophet hood. (b) Do=Work as is being told by the Prophet (Here it must be noted that this Work is always good work and never the bad ones).
So, coming to the topic of "Works vs Faith", it is always the combination of the two and not just one. How can anyone claim to believe in Jesus or Mohammad as the Prophet of Father=Allah, and does bad things that are not fulfilling the requirements of Father=Allah?
However, again IMHO, even if someone is not a believer, his good Works would not go unrewarded by the Father=Allah, as He is the ultimate MOST Just.
What do you say?
Best regards. |
1) The general Christian belief was that Christ always existed as an aspect of God. As Jesus, he set aside his divinity in order to experience suffering, fear, doubt, temptation, hunger - the human experiences an omnipotent God can not experience. Christians believe that Christ directly ascended into heaven some weeks after his resurrection and reassumed his divine status.
This is not unlike the common story of a prince who assumes a disguise in order to experience directly the world he rules.
2) Good deeds are required in Christianity. See the Epistle of James. However, we distinguish between an person who does good deeds simply because he is a decent person, and a person who does good deeds because he trusts in Christ and those good works are the natural product and evidence of his faith.
Islam and Christianity are very close here imho.
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I fully respect your views DavidC, how some may differ from it, simply because what Allah has told us in Quran. For your info, here are few verses of Quran relating specifically to Christians:
005.082
YUSUFALI: Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
005.083
YUSUFALI: And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
005.084
YUSUFALI: "What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
005.085
YUSUFALI: And for this their prayer hath Allah rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath,- their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
Best regards.
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DavidC
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Posted: 20 November 2016 at 8:01am |
AhmadJoyia wrote:
DavidC wrote:
AhmadJoyia wrote:
DavidC wrote:
Matthew 7:21
�Not everyone who says to me, �Lord, Lord,� will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. |
Excellent quote my brother DavidC which, IMHO, clearly shows the following:
1) Jesus, while he was physically on earth, his Father=God=Allah was in heaven. When, where, and how, the merger of the two (or three )took place?
2) The essential requirement of fulfilling the "will" of Father=Allah. Can this requirement be different than the one required by Jesus? I don't think so, simply because Jesus was the specially selected messenger (we call it Prophet) of Father=Allah. Btw what is this requirement? Again, IMHO, the first and foremost requirement is (a) Believe in his Prophet hood. (b) Do=Work as is being told by the Prophet (Here it must be noted that this Work is always good work and never the bad ones).
So, coming to the topic of "Works vs Faith", it is always the combination of the two and not just one. How can anyone claim to believe in Jesus or Mohammad as the Prophet of Father=Allah, and does bad things that are not fulfilling the requirements of Father=Allah?
However, again IMHO, even if someone is not a believer, his good Works would not go unrewarded by the Father=Allah, as He is the ultimate MOST Just.
What do you say?
Best regards. |
1) The general Christian belief was that Christ always existed as an aspect of God. As Jesus, he set aside his divinity in order to experience suffering, fear, doubt, temptation, hunger - the human experiences an omnipotent God can not experience. Christians believe that Christ directly ascended into heaven some weeks after his resurrection and reassumed his divine status.
This is not unlike the common story of a prince who assumes a disguise in order to experience directly the world he rules.
2) Good deeds are required in Christianity. See the Epistle of James. However, we distinguish between an person who does good deeds simply because he is a decent person, and a person who does good deeds because he trusts in Christ and those good works are the natural product and evidence of his faith.
Islam and Christianity are very close here imho.
|
I fully respect your views DavidC, how some may differ from it, simply because what Allah has told us in Quran. For your info, here are few verses of Quran relating specifically to Christians:
005.082
YUSUFALI: Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
005.083
YUSUFALI: And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
005.084
YUSUFALI: "What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
005.085
YUSUFALI: And for this their prayer hath Allah rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath,- their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
Best regards. |
Thank you, AhmadJoyia. Christians and Muslims in the US got along perfectly well until 2001.
Still, most Christians are accepting of Islam and it is common for smaller Muslim communities to use Christian churches until they can organize a mosque.
Believing in God is the most important thing. Freedom of religion is lawfully defined as a human right.
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Saved
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Posted: 20 November 2016 at 9:47am |
AhmadJoyia wrote:
Excellent quote my brother DavidC which, IMHO, clearly shows the following:
1) Jesus, while he was physically on earth, his Father=God=Allah was in heaven. When, where, and how, the merger of the two (or three )took place?
2) The essential requirement of fulfilling the "will" of Father=Allah. Can this requirement be different than the one required by Jesus? I don't think so, simply because Jesus was the specially selected messenger (we call it Prophet) of Father=Allah. Btw what is this requirement? Again, IMHO, the first and foremost requirement is (a) Believe in his Prophet hood. (b) Do=Work as is being told by the Prophet (Here it must be noted that this Work is always good work and never the bad ones).
So, coming to the topic of "Works vs Faith", it is always the combination of the two and not just one. How can anyone claim to believe in Jesus or Mohammad as the Prophet of Father=Allah, and does bad things that are not fulfilling the requirements of Father=Allah?
However, again IMHO, even if someone is not a believer, his good Works would not go unrewarded by the Father=Allah, as He is the ultimate MOST Just.
What do you say?
Best regards. |
Yes, Matthew 7:21 is an excellent quote when we understand it in the context Jesus said it in.
The gospel tells us what the will of God is. It is to believe on Him whom he sent meaning Jesus specifically yesterday, today and forever Jesus is the same. Putting our faith in any other prophet today would not be obeying the will of His father (Allah) according to the gospel and the context of that verse.
For instance, Jesus is saying calling Him Lord, Lord is not enough; we must have Christ not just in our life as a prophet, but He must be the captain of our life siting on the throne of our hearts not just as one of the prophets. David C knows this, and he cannot deny this is the gospel message without compromising his faith.
There are those who call Jesus Lord, Lord that are lost, but all those who refuse to call Him Lord are lost and their good deeds will only benefit them here and now, because we all reap what we sow; it is a the law like gravity.
It is clear according to the gospel that if you place your trust in good deeds or feel you must be the one to combine good deeds with faith to inherit salvation, eternal life, and paradise, all life will be lost to that individual. I speak the true intention of the gospel.
Let me say if we truly make Jesus the Lord of our life then we are doing the will of God and good works will be done through us naturally like a tree bears fruit in its season because only God can put in us the will to do according to His good pleasure when we meet Him on His terms not ours..
Don't be deceived bro in what true Christianity is about.. If you understand it then you can make an informed decision.
Let me put it another way. You can have good deeds without belief in God, but you cannot have faith in the God of the gospel without good deeds. IOW, Faith is the fire and good deeds is the incense or smoke pleasing to God. Without the fire of faith in Christ, the incense will profit you nothing in eternity. That is the gospel! The good news is that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it because Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and not we ourselves.
Basically, the gospel of Christianity tells us that Jesus is not honored unless he is honored above all prophets and messengers and our own life.
Finally, the gospel states it would have been better that we never heard this message than to have heard it and reject it.
Edited by Saved - 20 November 2016 at 6:34pm
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Budain
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Posted: 23 November 2016 at 2:22pm |
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Does Islam accept Jesus as a spiritual being aka God as an equal to Allah?
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asep48garut60
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Posted: 24 November 2016 at 4:29pm |
Saved wrote:
asep48garut60 wrote:
Dear Saved,
Once again I say that I have no intention like that, and I already apologized if it is not pleasing to you.
The reason I was slow to reply to you even to the others, it's not because I'm lazy, but there's something more important job I have to do. Only Allah knows it.
Sorry, not because I do not want to trust to you, but I also had to consider to determine the truth that is in accordance with my heart and mind. Therefore, in the search for the ultimate truth, besides studied the Quran, I also studied the books of others, including the Veda (Hindu) and the Tripitaka (Buddhist), etc.
Regards,
Asep
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Dear Asep:
I notice that you have not mentioned the gospel as one of the Books you should be looking at as Allah commanded. How shall you arrive at truth without fully obeying God? God never told us to look at the Veda or the Tripitaka.
PBUY,
Saved |
Dear Saved,
You said:
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I notice that you have not mentioned the gospel as one of the Books you should be looking at as Allah commanded.
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The answer is Quran (3):3
This verse explains that Allah has given books to the messengers, and Muslims must believe in the books before the Quran that these books are coming from Allah. But it does not mean Muslims should follow religious rituals performed by them because Muslims own Quran and Islamic Shari'a to perform ritual worship.
You said:
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How shall you arrive at truth without fully obeying God? God never told us to look at the Veda or the Tripitaka.
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Now and forever, I only believe in the Quran and not the other books.
Yes, God never told us to look at the Veda or the Tripitaka. I read these books because I was so want to find the real truth which one is right ?
And my choice is Quran.
Regards,
Asep
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