Islam and Christianity Dialogue

Sister you are going back to the renovation of Islamic laws again, please inform me in detail what laws must be change to show the correct way of Islam.

Then from what you've said then you agree that the laws which you mentioned that should be changed is a subjective claim with no basis correct? Obviously to make an objection to the present Islamic laws requirs extensive knowledge on how these laws are enacted. From making such a claim that such laws of God should be changed one would have to have some extensive study on these laws for them to be objected by a person. Because the laws seem, seemingly outdated to you necessarily doesn't mean that they aren't effective for the entire populace. again be serious and note your objection however this is getting too far away from the current topic but since nobody else is responding here why not?

Dear Brother Israfil! AS-Salam-o-Alikum! May peace be on you!

Brother you have started such an important topic which is need of the day. I would try to offer some of my views on this.

Why there has to be various interpretations? In my opinion there can be 3 reasons for this:

(1) Most would interpret differently because they think differently. Like no 2 fingers are alike in our hand.

(2) Some would have different interpretation because they were unable to access all the available material on the subject.

(3) Most will interpret in a different manner because they think the message in front of them should have been according to their thoughts and ideology. To them their whims, logics, old customs/ traditions are more important. They follow their own conjectures and hypothesis no matter whatever you present to them. As said in 2:18. �Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back�. (Here I don�t mean the difference of opinion but an interpretation which is against the basic principles of Islam. Like the interpretation some have offered incase of 2:62 and 5:69) in complete contradiction of Hadith and 3:19).

Why there is difference of opinion amongst the scholars of Fiqa? This in my opinion is due to 2 reasons.

(1) The complete collection of hadith/traditions was not available in a binded form from one place and the scholars had to travel from one place to another to reach for the material/traditions.

(2) The society, the social customs, governmental laws, and foreign influences etc demanded different sort of solutions for the similar old problems.

Should the Old Fiqa be valid for now? In my opinion �ABSOLUTELY NOT�. I may agree to a particular set of rules or interpretations of a particular scholar but I should not be identified by his jurisprudence, like we call ourselves as SUNNI, SHIA, BARALAVI, SALFI, WAHABBI, DEOBANDDI, AHL-E-HADITH, SHAAFI, MALAKI, HANAFI, HANBLI, and what and what not you can keep counting. I hold an extreme view on this and some get infuriated on this. In my opinion either we can either call ourselves as Muslims or Shia/Sunni/Hanafi�� etc (belonging to a particular sect). I was born in Baralavi/Sunni family and about 6 years ago I denounced my sect and now only identify myself as a MUSLIM. My argument is based on the following verses and Hadith:

�And be not like those (Jews and Christians) who got divided (into sects) and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement�. (3:105).

�Surely they who adopted different ways in their religion and divided (themselves) into sects, you have nothing to do with them; their case is only with Allah, then He will tell them of (their crimes and) what they did�. (6:159).

�So then keep your face steadfast towards the religion in the right direction -- on the nature made by Allah on which He created mankind; never make alterations in the Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know O Keep yourself committed towards Him, and remain cautious of (your duty to) Him and be regular in your prayer and be not of the polytheists O Of those who divided their religion and became sects every sect is rejoicing on (the beliefs) what they have with them�. (Ch-30: V-30-32).

�But how can you disbelieve while it is you to whom the communications of Allah are recited, and among you is His Apostle? And whoever holds fast to Allah, he indeed is guided to the right path�. (3:101).

�And hold fast by the rope (revelations) of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way�. (3:103)

Prophet said, �You Muslims will be divided among 72 sects�.� (Abu-Dawood). At another place he said, �You people will get divided into 73 sects and all will go to hell except for one�. Companions asked, �which one will go to heaven?� Prophet answered, �One who will follow me and my companions�. (Thramdhi). So what was Prophet following? Obviously THE QURAN, and what were his companions following? Certainly THE HADITH (sunnah of Prophet).

Why there are so many varying interpretations and sects among Muslims? (1) Because Muslims have stopped following the Quran and Hadith and have stopped learning Arabic. They now only rely on the translations which mostly don�t convey the actual meanings.

(2) Because we have gone to the extremes in our religion against the order which was also given to the previous nations, in 5:77, �Say: O followers of the Book! do not unduly go to the extreme in your religion, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray before and also led many others to go astray and went away from the right path�.

Some Muslims claimed divinity for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by excluding him from human race, some claimed it for the 4^th Caliph Hazrat Ali(RA), some started degrading and refuting the Prophet by rejecting the Hadith and some deprived him of the respect and honour which he deserve.

Why didn�t God created all of us on one Grid? God created angels who don�t have the mandate to disobey (however they do ask questions as they did once Allah announced that He is placing a viceroy on earth). Allah created Jinns who were given option either to obey or disobey. Among them was the Lucifer (whom we all today know by the name of Satan or devil), he was the most pious among Jinns but became self conceit and proud. So Allah put him to test by ordering to prostrate in front of Adam, and he failed the test.

So he asked Allah in sort of a challenge, �He (Lucifer) said: See for thyself: Is this the one whom Thou have honored over me? If Thou grant me respite till the day of resurrection, I will most certainly obliterate (and cast astray) its complete civilization except for a very few o� (17:62), also �He (Lucifer) said: As Thou hast caused me to go astray (by putting me to test), I will certainly lie in wait for them in Thy straight path o Then I will certainly come to them from front and from behind and from their right-hand side and from their left-hand side; and Thou shalt not find most of them thankful o� (7:16-17).

So Allah gave him the respite till the doomsday but said in 7:18 �He (Allah) said: Get out of here (heavens), degraded, banished; whosoever of them will follow you, I will certainly fill hell with you all�.

But Allah also told that, ��.Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve o And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide� (2:38-39).

So initially there was one religion and that was to worship one God. Later Satan lured humans off the right path and they started worshiping the seen and distant things like moon, sun, star, idols, saints, Prophets etc. Every time humans would go astray, Allah selected His messenger to guide them to the right path and gave them divine revelations. Each time this happened, and time and again Satan would cast them away by motivating them to make alterations in the Holy Scriptures as done by Jews and Christians.

This continued on till ages, until Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came in this world. But this time Allah Almighty announced that Muhammad is the last messenger and Quran is the last revelation and from now on no messenger will be sent forth.

However what unusual happened this time was that Allah pronounced that no one will have the power or authority to make any alterations in the last revelation �Quran� till the end of this world. So anyone who is interested to find the truth, he can consult it from the Last Testament (Quran). But the struggle between the good and evil will last till the last day.

However the matter would be decided on the day of Judgement and Allah will say, �And on the day when He shall gather them all together: O assembly of jinn! you took away a great part of mankind�� The fire is your abode, to abide in it, except as Allah is pleased; surely your Lord is Wise, Knowing�. (6:128),

and in 14:22 �And the Shaitan shall say after the matter is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, which was all lies, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: Now neither I can come to your aid nor can you be of any aid to me; surely I disassociate myself from your shirk (associating me with Allah); surely for the unjust/evil-doers is the painful punishment�.

So the way is clear for us follow Allah�s revelations rather than our own conjectures. The Quran says, whosoever do good it is for his benefit and whosoever earns evil it is only for his own harm. Islam has got solution to all our problems but these solutions will not necessarily in accordance to our wishes.

I would summarize it this way: �THIS LIFE CONSTITUTES MEANS TO ACHIEVE AN END AND IS NOT AN END IN ITSELF.�

�Swearing by the age of time O Most certainly the complete mankind is in state of loss (including Jews who claim that no harm can come to them from God, including Christians who claim Prophet Jesus sacrificed himself for their salvation, including Muslims who are sure that Prophet Muhammad will not let them go to heaven, Hindus, Buddhist etc etc) O Except for those who have faith (in Allah, apostles, angels, revelations, Taqdeer [that God has power over all things, narrowly translated as Destiny], Day of Judgment 2:2-3) and perform good deeds and enjoin each others on truth and show/insist each other on patience O�

Shams Zaman

Pakistan

[email protected]

Author	Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic
Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Post Options Post Reply Quote Israfil Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 January 2006 at 10:01pm
	Sister you are going back to the renovation of Islamic laws again, please inform me in detail what laws must be change to show the correct way of Islam.

amlhabibi2000 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 08 December 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 447	Post Options Post Reply Quote amlhabibi2000 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 January 2006 at 10:59pm
	LOL Maybe we can go to Home Depo, Home Hardware or Canadian Tire for renovation tips LOL! Brother even though I have studied the Quran for some ten or more years I am still learning what the hadeath says about the laws and what the Sheria laws are. If I could I would get all the laws in chronological order and start from the begining and see where improvements could be made, then I would ask a team or group of people to consider how these laws might be more people friendly and appropriate in terms of corrective measures or punishments and then I would do a first write of the docuement followed by reviews of the average person then mass produce it and give copies free to every house hold as well as available in brail, on voice and visual cassettes as well as CD rom for computer. I would send teams and media to every corner of the world with these new laws and guidances and ensure governments agree to folloew them as well. Then while sharing these laws I would enjoin the people to participate in a Great Sorting Out into resolution and encouragement groups to see where they have done wrong, where they can do better and what we as a collective body ie Mankind can do with a little education, counseling, consultation and technology, will power and of course last but not least empowerment skills. I guess the reason I am so enthusiastic is that I started with myself already and I have made progress of course not without hardships along the way however I prepared my family as best I could and I called on community resources, infra structures and my social network to support me in my efforts. Seeing as I am feeling better I thought I would try and assist others with feeling better about who we are and what we we can achieve if we put our minds to it and do not give in to despair and reach out to community for assistance with resolving our challenges and it is my hope that every community has appropriate infra structure and trained staff or volunteers to assist those who have suffered from physical, emotional or sexual abuse or who are being self abusive like drinking too much alchol, or taking bad drugs or smking. Call me a dreamer but what a dream. Maybe the dream is bigger than me but in my universe it starts with me and in your universe it starts with you. May Allah Bless us all! Inshallah Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi Edited by amlhabibi2000
	Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8

Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Post Options Post Reply Quote Israfil Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 January 2006 at 2:46pm
	Then from what you've said then you agree that the laws which you mentioned that should be changed is a subjective claim with no basis correct? Obviously to make an objection to the present Islamic laws requirs extensive knowledge on how these laws are enacted. From making such a claim that such laws of God should be changed one would have to have some extensive study on these laws for them to be objected by a person. Because the laws seem, seemingly outdated to you necessarily doesn't mean that they aren't effective for the entire populace. again be serious and note your objection however this is getting too far away from the current topic but since nobody else is responding here why not?

DavidC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474	Post Options Post Reply Quote DavidC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 January 2006 at 1:54pm
	From a Christian view, the law is only a beginning. A fence, so to speak, to keep people protected during their spiritual training. Faith and grace reveal some of the truth behind the law. The law remains as a way of preventing grevious error but cannot bring closer to the love of God. When law becomes the entire point of religion it becomes quite sad and oppressive.
	Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

Shams Zaman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 135	Post Options Post Reply Quote Shams Zaman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 January 2006 at 2:51am
	Dear Brother Israfil! AS-Salam-o-Alikum! May peace be on you! Brother you have started such an important topic which is need of the day. I would try to offer some of my views on this. Why there has to be various interpretations? In my opinion there can be 3 reasons for this: (1) Most would interpret differently because they think differently. Like no 2 fingers are alike in our hand. (2) Some would have different interpretation because they were unable to access all the available material on the subject. (3) Most will interpret in a different manner because they think the message in front of them should have been according to their thoughts and ideology. To them their whims, logics, old customs/ traditions are more important. They follow their own conjectures and hypothesis no matter whatever you present to them. As said in 2:18. �Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back�. (Here I don�t mean the difference of opinion but an interpretation which is against the basic principles of Islam. Like the interpretation some have offered incase of 2:62 and 5:69) in complete contradiction of Hadith and 3:19). Why there is difference of opinion amongst the scholars of Fiqa? This in my opinion is due to 2 reasons. (1) The complete collection of hadith/traditions was not available in a binded form from one place and the scholars had to travel from one place to another to reach for the material/traditions. (2) The society, the social customs, governmental laws, and foreign influences etc demanded different sort of solutions for the similar old problems. Should the Old Fiqa be valid for now? In my opinion �ABSOLUTELY NOT�. I may agree to a particular set of rules or interpretations of a particular scholar but I should not be identified by his jurisprudence, like we call ourselves as SUNNI, SHIA, BARALAVI, SALFI, WAHABBI, DEOBANDDI, AHL-E-HADITH, SHAAFI, MALAKI, HANAFI, HANBLI, and what and what not you can keep counting. I hold an extreme view on this and some get infuriated on this. In my opinion either we can either call ourselves as Muslims or Shia/Sunni/Hanafi�� etc (belonging to a particular sect). I was born in Baralavi/Sunni family and about 6 years ago I denounced my sect and now only identify myself as a MUSLIM. My argument is based on the following verses and Hadith: �And be not like those (Jews and Christians) who got divided (into sects) and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement�. (3:105). �Surely they who adopted different ways in their religion and divided (themselves) into sects, you have nothing to do with them; their case is only with Allah, then He will tell them of (their crimes and) what they did�. (6:159). �So then keep your face steadfast towards the religion in the right direction -- on the nature made by Allah on which He created mankind; never make alterations in the Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know O Keep yourself committed towards Him, and remain cautious of (your duty to) Him and be regular in your prayer and be not of the polytheists O Of those who divided their religion and became sects every sect is rejoicing on (the beliefs) what they have with them�. (Ch-30: V-30-32). �But how can you disbelieve while it is you to whom the communications of Allah are recited, and among you is His Apostle? And whoever holds fast to Allah, he indeed is guided to the right path�. (3:101). �And hold fast by the rope (revelations) of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way�. (3:103) Prophet said, �You Muslims will be divided among 72 sects�.� (Abu-Dawood). At another place he said, �You people will get divided into 73 sects and all will go to hell except for one�. Companions asked, �which one will go to heaven?� Prophet answered, �One who will follow me and my companions�. (Thramdhi). So what was Prophet following? Obviously THE QURAN, and what were his companions following? Certainly THE HADITH (sunnah of Prophet). Why there are so many varying interpretations and sects among Muslims? (1) Because Muslims have stopped following the Quran and Hadith and have stopped learning Arabic. They now only rely on the translations which mostly don�t convey the actual meanings. (2) Because we have gone to the extremes in our religion against the order which was also given to the previous nations, in 5:77, �Say: O followers of the Book! do not unduly go to the extreme in your religion, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray before and also led many others to go astray and went away from the right path�. Some Muslims claimed divinity for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by excluding him from human race, some claimed it for the 4^th Caliph Hazrat Ali(RA), some started degrading and refuting the Prophet by rejecting the Hadith and some deprived him of the respect and honour which he deserve. Why didn�t God created all of us on one Grid? God created angels who don�t have the mandate to disobey (however they do ask questions as they did once Allah announced that He is placing a viceroy on earth). Allah created Jinns who were given option either to obey or disobey. Among them was the Lucifer (whom we all today know by the name of Satan or devil), he was the most pious among Jinns but became self conceit and proud. So Allah put him to test by ordering to prostrate in front of Adam, and he failed the test. So he asked Allah in sort of a challenge, �He (Lucifer) said: See for thyself: Is this the one whom Thou have honored over me? If Thou grant me respite till the day of resurrection, I will most certainly obliterate (and cast astray) its complete civilization except for a very few o� (17:62), also �He (Lucifer) said: As Thou hast caused me to go astray (by putting me to test), I will certainly lie in wait for them in Thy straight path o Then I will certainly come to them from front and from behind and from their right-hand side and from their left-hand side; and Thou shalt not find most of them thankful o� (7:16-17). So Allah gave him the respite till the doomsday but said in 7:18 �He (Allah) said: Get out of here (heavens), degraded, banished; whosoever of them will follow you, I will certainly fill hell with you all�. But Allah also told that, ��.Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve o And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide� (2:38-39). So initially there was one religion and that was to worship one God. Later Satan lured humans off the right path and they started worshiping the seen and distant things like moon, sun, star, idols, saints, Prophets etc. Every time humans would go astray, Allah selected His messenger to guide them to the right path and gave them divine revelations. Each time this happened, and time and again Satan would cast them away by motivating them to make alterations in the Holy Scriptures as done by Jews and Christians. This continued on till ages, until Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came in this world. But this time Allah Almighty announced that Muhammad is the last messenger and Quran is the last revelation and from now on no messenger will be sent forth. However what unusual happened this time was that Allah pronounced that no one will have the power or authority to make any alterations in the last revelation �Quran� till the end of this world. So anyone who is interested to find the truth, he can consult it from the Last Testament (Quran). But the struggle between the good and evil will last till the last day. However the matter would be decided on the day of Judgement and Allah will say, �And on the day when He shall gather them all together: O assembly of jinn! you took away a great part of mankind�� The fire is your abode, to abide in it, except as Allah is pleased; surely your Lord is Wise, Knowing�. (6:128), and in 14:22 �And the Shaitan shall say after the matter is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, which was all lies, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: Now neither I can come to your aid nor can you be of any aid to me; surely I disassociate myself from your shirk (associating me with Allah); surely for the unjust/evil-doers is the painful punishment�. So the way is clear for us follow Allah�s revelations rather than our own conjectures. The Quran says, whosoever do good it is for his benefit and whosoever earns evil it is only for his own harm. Islam has got solution to all our problems but these solutions will not necessarily in accordance to our wishes. I would summarize it this way: �THIS LIFE CONSTITUTES MEANS TO ACHIEVE AN END AND IS NOT AN END IN ITSELF.� �Swearing by the age of time O Most certainly the complete mankind is in state of loss (including Jews who claim that no harm can come to them from God, including Christians who claim Prophet Jesus sacrificed himself for their salvation, including Muslims who are sure that Prophet Muhammad will not let them go to heaven, Hindus, Buddhist etc etc) O Except for those who have faith (in Allah, apostles, angels, revelations, Taqdeer [that God has power over all things, narrowly translated as Destiny], Day of Judgment 2:2-3) and perform good deeds and enjoin each others on truth and show/insist each other on patience O� Shams Zaman Pakistan
	[email protected]