Biblical Prophecies About Muhammad

Here is what Jewish tradition tells us about the link between Ishmael and Arabs " Hagar, a daughter of Pharaoh, gave birth to Ishmael, who would become the father of the Arabs, according to both Jewish and Muslim tradition." http://www.jewishbulletin.ca/judaism/index.html

Not only this, hitorically speaking, many Jewish scholars, such as Rabbi Abraham Ibn Ezra, a 12 century Jewish scholar have always linked Ishmael with Islam as Ishaq with Judaism. Even before him, we see Rav Sa'adia Ga'on, the tenth-century rabbinical leader whose Arabic translation of the Bible enjoyed unchallenged authority and popularity among the Jews, also clearly joining the links.

Here is another interesting article by Jewish encyclopedia describing Kedar, the son Ishmael:

"One of the sons of Ishmael (Gen. xxv. 13; I Chron. i. 29). The name is also applied in Scripture to the tribe that sprang from him, and is likewise used for the Bedouins generally, whose characteristic traits are ascribed to Kedar (Cant. i. 5; Isa. xxi. 16, xlii. 11, lx. 7; Jer. ii. 10, xlix. 28; Ezek. xxvii. 21). While very little is known of Kedar, the head of the tribe, his posterity, called also the "Bene Kedar" (Isa. xxi. 17), are described as barbarous tribes in connection with Mesech. "Woe is me," says the Psalmist (Ps. cxx. 5), "that I sojourn in Mesech, that I dwell in the tents of Kedar!" According to other passages, they appear to have been rich in flocks of sheep and goats, in which they traded with the Syrians (Ezek. xxvii. 21; Jer. xlix. 49). They dwelt in tents of black hair (Cant. i. 5) in the midst of the wilderness of Arabia, and were known as skilful archers (Isa. xxi. 17). But they also settled in villages or towns (Isa. xlii. 11). According to Mohammedan tradition, Kedar ("Ḳaidhar") was the ancestor of Mohammed; and it is through him that Mohammed's descent is traced to Ishmael (Caussin de Perceval, "Essai," i. 175).E. "

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=156&let ter=K&search=kedar

Edited by AhmadJoyia

�on the subject of the genealogy of muhammad, do we find such a thing in the quran? i dont remember reading one�

�------now it has come to my attention that there is no genealogy of muhammad in the quran - this being the case (unless you can prove otherwise) can you point to any clear statement in the quran which indicates that muhammad is descended from ishmael?�

Consider starting with Quran 2:129, Fredi, but do note in advance that this reference is not as obvious as is the lack of foreskin on any given adult Arab male.  Does one need a literal reminder of the �sign� of the Abrahamic and, by extension, Ishmaelite covenant?

But anyway, in this respect, and even if there were no linkages, one could say that the Quran, in large part, apparently takes St. Paul�s warning (to Timothy) and does not concern itself or its readers, fortunately, with �endless genealogies.�  It seems that those records are kept elsewhere. 

As a matter of academic interest, why should one have to point to the Quran for such genealogical proofs, Fredi?   According to Heinrich Graetz  (as I recall), when the above-mentioned Jews arrived in Arabia from a recently destroyed Jerusalem and managed to establish blood ties to the resident Arabs, they did not exclusively refer to Biblical genealogical records.  Obviously, some, in fact the lion�s share of history is not to be found either in the Bible or the Quran.  The great Roman (Jewish) historian, Flavius Josephus, did not rely exclusively upon the Bible for some of his complex and comprehensive records.

From my time on this board, I understand that, unlike the average Protestant Christian, Muslims, at least Sunni Muslims, are not sola scriptura and do not rely upon the Quran alone.  They have, at their disposal, a vast corpus of extra-Quranic literature, including the ahadith and records from such generally respected (in the West) historians as Ibn al-Tabari and Ibn-Khaldun.  Before I brought the Jewish historian, Heinrich Graetz, into this discussion as one in a series of proofs which links Muhammad to Ishmael, AhmadJoyia had offered to provide Arab sources.  Perhaps now would be a good time to do so, Ahmad?  If the Jews are capable of writing their histories, I think the Arabs are capable as well.

Servetus

Fredifreeloader wrote: ahmad - you said:  "For example, you provided the meaning of 'jesse' as equivalent to 'wealthy', where as there are other multiple meanings of the same word; one source says it mean "the Lord exists", something closer to "Lord hears", and another one says it mean "firm, or a gift"."  --------- in other words these unspecified sources do not give the meaning "God will hear".  your reference to twotot is neither here nor there, as i was not talking about comparisons of  the parallels of names and the meanings of names, i was giving the meaning of the name.

My dear, the whole notion of having 'same meaning' for the same word used at numerous places is a week logic, if not flawed as I have already shown you, not only through historical veracity of the occassions of the occurances of the word at two places, but as well through an example. Even now a days a simple word has multiple meanings; could this mean the name for the two is different? I don't think so. The reference to twotot is a direct one to substantiate this concept and not "neither here nor there". Hence your critic, sololy on the 'meaning' of the word is on thin ice.

Fredifreeloader wrote: now it is only natural, as a muslim, that you should try to appropriate the characteristics of Christ to muhammad.

 As long as you keep Christ as divine, any sensible man with logic and wisdom, can never accept your point of ascribing this prophesy to him but only to an human prophet. Do you agree with this? Look at the burial place of this prophet venerated in the same prophesy "And His ^(W)resting place will be glorious. " Do you tend to ascribe this to your Lord??

Fredifreeloader wrote:  qualities such as judgment (although i have already shown that the judgement spoken of in isaiah 11 can only belong to Christ), righteousness and faithfulness.  the latter two characteristics also belong to God, as our God is a covenant God, establishing covenants in righteousness and carrying them out through faithfulness.

 Kindly substantiate your assertion. Especially, once we do know and understand that many prophets did judge among their nations justly and faithfully with the commands and laws presecribed by God. I also do notice your silence over the issue of Prophesied Masaih to come and your concept of him killing people on the basis of faith alone. Is that too hard to explain in view of your concept of Trinity?

Fredifreeloader wrote: however you have singularly failed to address the other aspects of the prophecy-----, namely the conditions on earth which will result from the advent of the person described, the peace and safety which will prevail throughout creation, v.6-9, the geographical changes which will take place, v.15, and the historical events, namely the regathering of israel v. 11-12, and the cessation of internal wrangling among the jews, and the cutting off of the enemies of judah,  v.13, and the new order in the middle east, namely the domination of israel over the rest, v.14 -----none of this occurred with muhammad! --not only that, his modern-day followers are doing their very utmost to prevent some of it happening at all!

O my dear brother, these aspects are very simple to understand from my point of view, simply because I never put any literal undrestanding of them, as opposed to what you are proposing it to be. It is for this very reason the yoke is quite tighter on the literal understanding of the passages especially once the concept of Trinity is also involved.

Fredifreeloader wrote: basically all that there is to link this passage of the bible to muhammad is the notion that "jesse is a contraction of ishmael" and even this is only on the basis that muhammad is descended from ishmael.

Well my brother, as I have always maintained the position on the issue of prophies that they are more of hypothesis based upon conjectures and no one really can say anything with conclusive arguements. Our faith in God, is not based upon such conjectural work. However, the same is not true for my Christian brothers (through gospel accounts etc) who are heavily relying on such works to justify their doctrines. Aren't their doctrines only based upon conjectures? Is this the reason you felt so much disturbed about the post as your whole faith had been shaken to ground? As I said before, if "?" is ambigous to the link on one direction, isn't it equally ambigous on the other direction as well?  

Fredifreeloader wrote:  (it also does not take onto account the fact that jesse is the predecessor of Christ)

 In fact it does take into account, Jesse as Ishmael, is predecessor to Jesus Christ. So???

Fredifreeloader wrote:  ------now it has come to my attention that there is no genealogy of muhammad in the quran - this being the case (unless you can prove otherwise) can you point to any clear statement in the quran which indicates that muhammad is descended from ishmael?

I think bro Servetus has already provided you with a befitting reply on this. I would rather go a step in a different direction ask you to account for differences in geneologies mentioned by the different gospel accounts? 

Secondly, on the issue of foreskin and circumcision, I don't think covanent or no covanant has anything to do with the keeping of the traditions, especially if such are divinely ordained. The fact that many arab tribes used to practice it even before the advent of Islam, can also be a good clue in this link.

Edited by AhmadJoyia

�now you [Servetus] seem to be laying great stress on the fact of circumcision, ��

 

I am not meaning to interrupt, but please know that I only mention circumcision as one in a series of indications that Muhammad can be physically linked first to Ishmael and then to Abraham.   For statements of proofs that Muhammad and his progeny, or �Nation,� or �Ummah,� is directly connected to Ishmael, I refer first to Heinrich Graetz and then to Moses Maimonides, among others.

 

�now you seem to be laying great stress on the fact of circumcision, implying ? that it indicates inclusion in the covenant ��

 

Again not meaning to interrupt, but I might have been more careful in my wording.  Unless and until I want to involve myself in a complex game of Biblical Twister, or of convolutions in which the vouchsafed and God-given rights of the first-born are, through an at times surreptitious switching of hands, conferred instead upon the second-born, I know better than to participate in discussions concerning the details of the �covenant.�   I shall simply conclude by saying, in the Biblical manner, that as for me and my house, we shall take St. Paul�s advice to Timothy and not involve ourselves, beyond a point, in controversies related to �endless genealogies.�   Furthermore, we have heard and at least to a certain degree have understood:

 

�And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him ... and I will make him a great nation.� [KJV] (Genesis 17:20)

 

That said, I trust you will understand if I now excuse myself from this discussion and from this thread.  I have enjoyed talking to you and thank you for your contributions.

 

Best regards,

 

Servetus