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Biblical Prophecies About Muhammad
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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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Points: 456 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:03pm
oh dear servetus - that sounds pretty final.  hope it was nothing i said  
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Servetus View Drop Down
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Points: 2109 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Servetus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:16pm

Not at all, Fredi.  It is just that the only point that I tried to address in this thread is to establish a genealogical link between Muhammad and Ishmael.  I have offered what I know.  I think that most of the other points, especially as they relate to Biblical blessings and prophecies, are best addressed by others and by resident Muslims in particular.

 

If anything needs to be clarified from my side, I am willing to continue.  I just don�t want to become too deeply entangled in genealogies, etc., for reasons that I have given.

 

Ok?

 

Serv
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Fredifreeloader Fredifreeloader wrote:

ahmad - if you want to prove that jesse is a contraction of ishmael, you will have to produce something without question marks - that is the bottom line.

What?? Did I ask Biblical scholars to link "Jesse" as a contraction of "Ishmael"? I don't think so. Probably someone needs house cleaning for themselves than asking others to do it for them. Remember we are analysing the evidence from your own biblical encylopedia. The question of "?" is more appropriate to be addressed to them as what does it mean to them rather taking a stance on conjectures. We are simply reading it from their own writtings, though for us, this is not a big issue to even worry about. 

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader Fredifreeloader wrote:

.. then once you have produced this, you will then have to establish beyond any doubt that the jesse in isaiah 11 is in fact ishmael son of abraham and not jesse father of david, if, that is, you wish to take this to a higher level than just another piece of muslim wishful thinking.
If "jesse" is a contraction of "Ishmael", then it is only a matter of interpreting the same prophesy but with a different lens. That is not difficult I suppose as usually been done by my Christian brothers despite the Jewish critic. On the other hand, as I have said before, my Muslim brothers only trying to patch up with the existing Bible by looking at some info that might help them establish the fact that the scriptures used by the pre-Islamic Jewish and Christian monks to look at Arabia for their prophised Massiah are the same. The fact that some of them did recognize Mohammad as the one mentioned in their scriptures. But my present day Christian brothers are bent upon differentiating between their own scriptures of the old from the present one. Is their any specific reason to keep such hostility towards Islam?

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader Fredifreeloader wrote:

we on the other hand are not required to produce anything at all.  we know that davids father was called jesse, nowhere referred to as ishmael, and we know that abrahams son was called ishmael, nowhere referred to as jesse.
Brother wheather you like it or not, the prophesy clear negates the presence of any divine personality being alluded at. So its really against your own concept of divine Jesus. Secondly you believe about this propesy whatever you think it is, irrespective the owners of the scripture agree with you or not. Since they don't, the same reason can be used by Muslims as well. Its just so simple to understand.

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader Fredifreeloader wrote:

saying "oh well muhammad was righteous, and he judged the poor with equity just like the guy in isaiah 11..." will just not do - 
Ok so, at least, you do see this harmonising with the prophesy which is quite naturally 180 degree opposite to your understanding of "faith" based justice.

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader Fredifreeloader wrote:

 you cannot pick and choose snippets here and there, passing over the rest of the prophesy or ignoring it as you are doing, and hope to appeal to any rational mind ----////---if you do not think the bulk of the prophesy is literal, perhaps you might like to outline briefly exactly how it was fulfilled in muhammad
So my dear, if the first part of the prophesy doesn't tally with your understanding, aren't you also making the same error, as you say, picking cherries that you like, in other part of the prophesy? You can't blame others for what you yourself are blamed for.

Originally posted by Fridifreeloader Fridifreeloader wrote:

i was not criticising solely on the meaning of the name.  in fact i mentioned it as an aside.......

Ok!!

Originally posted by Freidfreeloader Freidfreeloader wrote:

---------also there is no burial ground mentioned in the chapter - the word in v.10 is rest/resting-place/abode, referring to the place where he is - it has nothing to do with death-------
Well you need to prove it, as you say "beyond doubt" instead of simply stating it against the common understanding of the phrase "and his resting-place shall be glorious" by A Hebrew-English Bible according to the Masoretic Text and the JPS 1917 Edition. I do notice why few Biblical translations are even avoiding such a situation by simply twisting the verse so much as not to get embarrsed by it? Here, from Contemporary English Version we read V.10 as "10 The time is coming when one of David's descendants will be the signal for the people of all nations to come together. They will follow his advice, and his own nation will become famous."

One can clearly see a baisness in such translations using the phrase "David's descendants" and totally omitting the words relating to resting-place etc. 

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader Fredifreeloader wrote:

you raised a number of other points which are irrelevant to the issue of "muhammad in the bible?"
That is upto you, no compulsion at all.



Edited by AhmadJoyia
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George View Drop Down
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Points: 406 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2006 at 10:26am

Hello to everyone,

This is my first post on this site.

I think that the prophet like Moses was ultimately Jesus and there is much evidence in support of that view.

But, I think that if the Muslims want to believe it is Muhammad, then they should go ahead and believe it.

Now I will look around at the other subjects and see what else I may be able to contribute to the discussions.

I do want to say that it is wonderful that a Muslim forum would want to encourage meaningful debate between Muslims and Christians and people of other faiths.

It is a giant step forward to get to know each other's beliefs and correct any misconceptions of those beliefs.  Ultimately the world will become a better place because of the efforts of this site and all of its participants.

 
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Hi Bro George,

Welcome to this thread and the website. Sure you can put forward your thoughts and hopefully someone among us shall see how to comment upon them. Coming to your idea when you say "I think that the prophet like Moses was ultimately Jesus and there is much evidence in support of that view."

First of all, I must say that I fully respect your thoughts, though not necessarily agree with them. In that notion, we already had some discussion with sis Katharine {amended} on this thread right in the begining of it when she pasted few instances to show her proofs. Kindly see as how she got responded about them. If you have anything more to it, I love to hear that. May God be with all of us. Amin!



Edited by AhmadJoyia
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Athanasius View Drop Down
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It is interesting to note that Moses was commanded by God to hold up the serpent in the wilderness - and all the Jews stricken will illness were to look at the serpent - and those that did would be healed.

In Christian understanding, the serpent also portrays Satan.  Satan was cursed by God for tempting Adam and Eve into sin, which brought about the fall of all creation and the need for redemption.

The Bible tell us that Jesus was cursed, for the Scripture states:

Galatians 3:13:  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on the tree.

Likewise, Scripture states:

2 Corinthians 5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Have you ever wondered why God wanted the Jews to look upon the serpent and be healed?  Jesus became sin, Jesus took the curse.  And just as the serpent was the means of healing, Christians believe that Jesus bore our sins, becoming our vicarious victim, that we could have eternal life.

This is one link, at least, between Moses and Jesus, who is called in the Bible "one greater than Moses."
Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Points: 1647 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2006 at 1:33pm

Originally posted by <SPAN =bold>Athanasius</SPAN> Athanasius wrote:

It is interesting to note that Moses was commanded by God to hold up the serpent in the wilderness - and all the Jews stricken will illness were to look at the serpent - and those that did would be healed

Bro can you quote your refernce......I am just being so lazy to connect it myself.
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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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Points: 456 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2006 at 2:16pm
ahmad - you refer to "the author of this thread" as female. funny that, i always thought of akmf as a bloke.  strange the misconceptions one can have
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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