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fredifreeloader 
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Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456 |
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 Posted: 29 April 2006 at 9:56am |
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actually, mish, the government will be on His shoulders, but that is future, when he comes to reign on earth. (most of the old testament prophecies relating to Christ are yet to be fulfilled at His second coming). at present Christ does not reign in this sense, the political, administrative sense. He will rule the world then in every sense of the word. christianity does not aspire to political, administrative, legal power in the present age of grace. there is no rule of law for christians in the sense that if somone offends, they will be punished by human christian authority. our law in that sense is the law in whichever land we happen to live. there is of course discipline in the church, whereby a person may be excommunicated from the local church if they have offended badly, spiritually, with a view to repentance and re-admission, but that is not the same as law in the social sense, and it certainly does not apply to non-christians i was reading earlier today about muslims in sweden who were calling for muslim laws to be applied to muslims in that country, with normal swedish law still applying to swedish non-muslims. it is inconceivable to me that christians would make the same demand. (it would have to be, i would think, some new, rather weird sect which would make such a demand). the structure is not there for it for one thing, and we are called upon, in the holy Scriptures, to be subject to whatever rulers we are under. christians view themselves as being in the world, but not of the world, our citizenship is in heaven, as the bible says. now you are saying that the practice of temporary marriage (we would call it prostitution) has been stopped by muhammad, as it did not fit in with the criteria of marriage. can you give a reference for this? and how could muhammad stop this, as he himself did not comply with the laws on marriage. was he above the very law he was transmitting? Edited by fredifreeloader |
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Mishmish
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Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 12:51pm |
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In what way did the Prophet(PBUH) not comply with the laws of marriage. The Prophet was allowed more than 4 wives because he made political and contractual alliances. Until the death of Khadija, the Prophet had only one wife. Then he married Sawdah, then Aisha, and they remained his only two wives until he was 56 years old. Yes, I look around me and see the celestial citizenship of Christians. Thank goodness no Christians have chosen governorship, otherwise there might have been wars between Catholics and Anglicans and Prostestants, and religious persecution leading some to flee their homeland and go to new countries where they committed genocide against indigenous people in order to set up their Christian puritanical governments.... Heck, we have a Christian President and a Christian Prime Minister at war in Iraq right now. perhaps someone should remind these men that as Christians they have no place in government. If you, as a Christian, have no part of the government of this world, why should you care if it is Shariah or not? At the time of the Prophet(PBUH) the Christians and Jews who lived among the Muslims were not subject to Shariah Law, as that was not their belief. Shariah Law is for Muslims only.
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Mishmish
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 1:09pm |
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Fred: As you can clearly see, the practice was forbidden. People doing this now are not following Islam. Perhaps you might view the early practice of this as prostitution. How do you view the practice of concubines, and such. What of incest with your daughters? What of sending your daughter-in-law to your kinsman to lie with him and force him into marriage? Would you say these things are sick, sick, sick!!!! |
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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fredifreeloader
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 2:29pm |
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[QUOTE=Mishmish]
In what way did the Prophet(PBUH) not comply with the laws of marriage. The Prophet was allowed more than 4 wives because he made political and contractual alliances. Until the death of Khadija, the Prophet had only one wife. Then he married Sawdah, then Aisha, and they remained his only two wives until he was 56 years old. yes my thought was that there was non-compliance because he had more that 4 wives, at the finish-up at least. but the reasons you gave (political and contractual alliances) seem very vague. they seem to indicate that the law of God can be altered to suit human advantage Yes, I look around me and see the celestial citizenship of Christians. Thank goodness no Christians have chosen governorship, otherwise there might have been wars between Catholics and Anglicans and Prostestants, and religious persecution leading some to flee their homeland and go to new countries where they committed genocide against indigenous people in order to set up their Christian puritanical governments.... Heck, we have a Christian President and a Christian Prime Minister at war in Iraq right now. perhaps someone should remind these men that as Christians they have no place in government. perhaps ive not made myself clear on the government issue. i havent said there is anything wrong with christians participating in human government at whatever level, if they feel they can contribute to the common good. i am saying that to set up something which might be called christian government is impossible. what i mean is that we have no equivalent of shariah law, and this would have to be invented if someone wanted to go down the road of christian government - to do so would be folly in my view. the spiritual authority invested in church leadership is not transferable to the temporal sphere If you, as a Christian, have no part of the government of this world, why should you care if it is Shariah or not? well of course i care about government. we all want good, fair government based on moral principle At the time of the Prophet(PBUH) the Christians and Jews who lived among the Muslims were not subject to Shariah Law, as that was not their belief. Shariah Law is for Muslims only. it is a matter of record how dreadfully disadvantaged non-muslims were and are under this system thank you for the references you gave re temporary marriage. but it seems odd to me that nothing about this, either allowing or disallowing it, crops up in the quran
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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fredifreeloader
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 2:32pm |
yes i would, actually. except for the last example you gave. i presume it is a reference to ruth and boaz. if so, you have misrepresented the thing dreadfully, and implied something which is clearly not there Edited by fredifreeloader |
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Sign*Reader
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 2:44pm |
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Sister Mishmish:
Thanks--keep up the good work  but as Jesus said" Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs----Mat.7-6. I doubt this Brit. bible thumper is here to learn anything but to mess around without proper understanding about facts on ground. How dare he objects to marriage rules in Islam while living in a godforsaken country with availablity of same sex marriage license. I think they have lost the right discuss anything sacred bcz they are unclean people. And this was the reason these Chritians and Jews of today were forbidden to go onto sacred Temple Mount in Jerusalem even after Israel took over that city. Can't people reflect any more ? |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Mishmish
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 3:39pm |
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Yes, The Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) was different as far as marriage goes. You say that there is no such thing as a Christian government, what of Catholicism? They not only have a government, they have their own sovereign country. Are you denying now that Catholics are Christians? You find it bothersome that the Prophet had more than 4 wives, yet Christians believe that Moab, the product of incest between the Prophet Lot and his own daughter, is part of the lineage of Jesus, whom you belive is God. That God so favored this incestuous relationship that he chose this ancestry for his human form. The Book of Ruth, please be kind enough to point out the misrepresentation: 1 One day Naomi her mother-in-law said to her, "My daughter, should I not try to find a home [a] for you, where you will be well provided for? 2 Is not Boaz, with whose servant girls you have been, a kinsman of ours? Tonight he will be winnowing barley on the threshing floor. 3 Wash and perfume yourself, and put on your best clothes. Then go down to the threshing floor, but don't let him know you are there until he has finished eating and drinking. 4 When he lies down, note the place where he is lying. Then go and uncover his feet and lie down. He will tell you what to do." 5 "I will do whatever you say," Ruth answered. 6 So she went down to the threshing floor and did everything her mother-in-law told her to do. 7 When Boaz had finished eating and drinking and was in good spirits, he went over to lie down at the far end of the grain pile. Ruth approached quietly, uncovered his feet and lay down. 8 In the middle of the night something startled the man, and he turned and discovered a woman lying at his feet. 9 "Who are you?" he asked. 10 "The LORD bless you, my daughter," he replied. "This kindness is greater than that which you showed earlier: You have not run after the younger men, whether rich or poor. 11 And now, my daughter, don't be afraid. I will do for you all you ask. All my fellow townsmen know that you are a woman of noble character. 12 Although it is true that I am near of kin, there is a kinsman-redeemer nearer than I. 13 Stay here for the night, and in the morning if he wants to redeem, good; let him redeem. But if he is not willing, as surely as the LORD lives I will do it. Lie here until morning." 14 So she lay at his feet until morning, but got up before anyone could be recognized; and he said, "Don't let it be known that a woman came to the threshing floor." 15 He also said, "Bring me the shawl you are wearing and hold it out." When she did so, he poured into it six measures of barley and put it on her. Then he [b] went back to town. 16 When Ruth came to her mother-in-law, Naomi asked, "How did it go, my daughter?" Then she told her everything Boaz had done for her 17 and added, "He gave me these six measures of barley, saying, 'Don't go back to your mother-in-law empty-handed.' " 18 Then Naomi said, "Wait, my daughter, until you find out what happens. For the man will not rest until the matter is settled today." |
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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fredifreeloader
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Posted: 30 April 2006 at 12:54pm |
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[QUOTE=Mishmish]
Yes, The Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) was different as far as marriage goes. again, it seems as though you are quite happy to place him above the law of allah You say that there is no such thing as a Christian government, what of Catholicism? They not only have a government, they have their own sovereign country. Are you denying now that Catholics are Christians? no im not denying that roman catholics are christians, but this does not make them right in combining spiritual and temporal power (even in the very small way in which they now do it), for which there is no justification in the new testament for the present age, quite the reverse You find it bothersome that the Prophet had more than 4 wives, yet Christians believe that Moab, the product of incest between the Prophet Lot and his own daughter, is part of the lineage of Jesus, whom you belive is God. That God so favored this incestuous relationship that he chose this ancestry for his human form. well the sin of lot and his daughters was hardly moabs fault, was it? how much less could any fault be attributed to ruth. hers was a beautiful character. she turned from idols to serve the living God - ruth 1: 16 - and how God blessed her as a result - He is faithful who promised - to say that she was blessed in her life, and that our blessed Lord was descended from her means that God favoured the incestuous relations her forefather allowed himself to descend to, is simply preposterous well you seemed to be saying that the mother-in-law made her lie with boaz, ie. enticed him to sex, so that he then had to marry her. but perhaps ive misunderstood you
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Mishmish wrote: