Quran and Crucifixion

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Alibaba

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Topic: Quran and Crucifixion
Posted: 17 May 2006 at 10:41am

Frankly, I was rather shocked to read that the Quran refers to crucifixion - but seemingly out of place historically. These verses our fairly anachronistic, wouldn't you say:

"Surah 7:120-124

120: And the wizards fell down prostrate,

121: Crying: We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,

122: The Lord of Moses and Aaron.

123: Pharaoh said: Ye believe in Him before I give you leave! Lo! this is the plot that ye have plotted in the city that ye may drive its people hence. But ye shall come to know!

124: Surely I shall have your hands and feet cut off upon alternate sides. Then I shall crucify you every one.

Surah 12:41

41: O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire."

Anyone who has studied crucifixion knows that it was invented by the Romans - who nailed a person on a cross bar and then placed the person and the cross bar on an upraised stake or tree. It seems rather out of place in the Quran, especially its implication that the Egyptians used this method of execution. There is no archeological evidence to support this.

Edited by Alibaba

Alibaba

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Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:31am

I found some good historical documentation of crucifixion (not impalement, by the way), but crucifixion and its origin and history:

4. Crucifixion 1400 years too soon!

Encyclopedia Britannica reports that crucifixion did not exist any earlier that about 500 BC, yet the Koran has passages that speak of crucifixion as early as 1900 BC. Muslim scholar Malik Farid, in his translation of the Koran, says in footnote 1033, "Incidentally, the verse shows that even as early as in the time of Moses the punishment of death by crucifixion was in vogue" (The Holy Qur�an, Arabic Text And English Translation With Commentary, Edited by Malik Ghulam Farid, Comment on 7:125, footnote 1033) Rather than admit that the perfect Koran makes a huge historical blunder, Muslim's merely re-write history and in spite of the universal record of history and archeology, say the Egyptians practiced crucifixion.

Although crucifixion did not exist any earlier that about 500 BC, the Koran has passages that speak of crucifixion as early as 1900 BC. First, in 1500 B.C. when Moses turned Aaron�s rod into a snake before Pharaoh of Egypt in Ex 7, the Koran says in 7:124; 26:49, that Pharaoh's magicians believed in the God of Moses. Pharaoh angrily responds by threatening to crucify these magicians. The Koran 12:41, in a different story 400 years earlier, that echoes Gen 40, Joseph interpreted the baker�s dream to mean that Pharaoh would crucify him, whereas scripture say he was hung.

Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)

BMZ

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Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:33am

Ali Baba,

There are two words available. One is Crucifixion and the other is Crucification.

Crucifixion was not a Roman invention. It was practised by various ancient peoples like the Persians, Romans and Carthegians. This form of punishment was extended to slaves and others with no civil rights.There was nailing done in the case of crucifixion as the word suggests.

However, crucification was simply hanging up a person bodily and fastening him up, leaving him to die. Pharoahs used to hang up people onto trees and wooden crosses (not the cross of the christians or Jesus).

Various versions of the New Testament use the term Crucification. This form had some whipping but did not not have whipping with steel chains, balls and spikes, etc. Pharoahs were the worst in the sense that they ordered chopping off say, the right hand and the left leg to render the person invalid and then hung the person on a cross or a tree by fastening him with ropes.

Please note that the NT mostly uses the term Crucification and that is different from the Roman Crucifixion. The most important point to note is that Jesus was not a murderor or a bandit or a person with a heinous crime record. As such the Romans would not have inflicted the procedure of crucifixion. Paul, a Jew himself said that they hung him up a tree. Now I don't need to know that the Tree could mean a cross because the timber comes from a tree. Paul's statement is quite clear. That is the only second statement I like from Paul. The first being that he never called Jesus God. Like Peter, Paul also called him only son of God.

Edited by bmzsp

Mishmish

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Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:36am

"Anyone who has studied crucifixion knows that it was invented by the Romans"

I would think you would have studied this before starting the thread. Especially in light of the other crucifixion threads where there is the ongoing confusion of cross and tree, which both were used.

Apparently the Romans didn't invent crucifixion, there is even mention of it, or hanging from a tree in Deuteronomy, the OLD Testament:

21:22 "If a man has committed a sin ^(P)worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,

21:23 ^(Q)his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for ^(R)he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you ^(S)do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.

History of crucifixion

Persia, Alexander and other pre-Roman states

Punishment by crucifixion was widely employed in ancient times. It is known to have been used by nations such as those of Assyria, Pharaonic Egypt, Achaemenid Persia, by the Greeks, Carthaginians, Macedonians, and from very early times by the Romans.

The earliest recording of a crucifixion was in 519 BC when Darius I, the Persian King of kings, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon.

It has been thought, too, that crucifixion was also used by the Jews themselves, and that there is an allusion to it (Deuteronomium xxi. 22, 23) as a punishment to be inflicted, though this reference is commonly associated with lynching.

There is evidence that captured pirates were crucified in the port of Athens around the 7th Century BC. Alexander the Great is reputed to have executed 2000 survivors from his siege of the Fenician city of Tyre, as well as the doctor who unsuccessfully treated Alexander's friend Hephaestion.

Some historians have also conjectured Alexander crucified Callisthenes, his official historian and biographer, for objecting to the adoption by Alexander of the royal Persian ceremony of adoration.

In Carthage, crucifixion was an established mode of execution, which could even be imposed on a general for suffering a major defeat.

Source: Wikipedia

Edited by Mishmish

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)

BMZ

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Joined: 03 April 2006
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Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:39am

Ali Baba,

Thanks for making my point easier by writing:

"Gen 40, Joseph interpreted the baker�s dream to mean that Pharaoh would crucify him, whereas scripture say he was hung."

That is exactly what I explained. To crucify or hang up a person on a tree or a post is the same.

As you said, then the Scripture should accept Paul's view that they hung Jesus up a tree.

Alibaba

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Joined: 19 April 2006
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Points: 134

Posted: 17 May 2006 at 12:37pm

Mishmish, you are speaking here of impalement, not crucifixion. It's interesting to note that Paul did apply this OT curse to Christ, "cursed is any man hung on a tree." However, the Romans added the innovation of the cross bar. Crucifixion refers to a cross, or two intersecting objects - in the case of Christ's crucifixion, we have the cross bar inserted onto the tree (upright stake). Impalement, on the other hand, was not crucifixion, and the reference to it by Mohammed in the Quran is obviously anachronistic (out of place).

By the way, Mishmish, the Wikipedia was the source stating that there is no known use of crucifixion in Egypt, other than that mentioned in the Quran. You cannot use the Quran to verify the Quran - bad polemics.

Edited by Alibaba

fredifreeloader View Drop Down

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Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:24pm

where exactly is the proof that the pharaohs practised crucifixion? - also that alexander was a muslim?

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16

Mishmish

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Joined: 01 November 2005
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Points: 1694

Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:26pm

Why not, you use the Bible to verify the Bible all of the time. Where else does it state that Jesus is God?

No wait, it doesn't even really state that in the Bible, does it? My bad....

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)

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Alibaba Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 19 April 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 134	Topic: Quran and Crucifixion Posted: 17 May 2006 at 10:41am
	Frankly, I was rather shocked to read that the Quran refers to crucifixion - but seemingly out of place historically. These verses our fairly anachronistic, wouldn't you say: "Surah 7:120-124 120: And the wizards fell down prostrate, 121: Crying: We believe in the Lord of the Worlds, 122: The Lord of Moses and Aaron. 123: Pharaoh said: Ye believe in Him before I give you leave! Lo! this is the plot that ye have plotted in the city that ye may drive its people hence. But ye shall come to know! 124: Surely I shall have your hands and feet cut off upon alternate sides. Then I shall crucify you every one. Surah 12:41 41: O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire." Anyone who has studied crucifixion knows that it was invented by the Romans - who nailed a person on a cross bar and then placed the person and the cross bar on an upraised stake or tree. It seems rather out of place in the Quran, especially its implication that the Egyptians used this method of execution. There is no archeological evidence to support this. Edited by Alibaba

Alibaba Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 19 April 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 134	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:31am
	I found some good historical documentation of crucifixion (not impalement, by the way), but crucifixion and its origin and history: 4. Crucifixion 1400 years too soon! Encyclopedia Britannica reports that crucifixion did not exist any earlier that about 500 BC, yet the Koran has passages that speak of crucifixion as early as 1900 BC. Muslim scholar Malik Farid, in his translation of the Koran, says in footnote 1033, "Incidentally, the verse shows that even as early as in the time of Moses the punishment of death by crucifixion was in vogue" (The Holy Qur�an, Arabic Text And English Translation With Commentary, Edited by Malik Ghulam Farid, Comment on 7:125, footnote 1033) Rather than admit that the perfect Koran makes a huge historical blunder, Muslim's merely re-write history and in spite of the universal record of history and archeology, say the Egyptians practiced crucifixion. Although crucifixion did not exist any earlier that about 500 BC, the Koran has passages that speak of crucifixion as early as 1900 BC. First, in 1500 B.C. when Moses turned Aaron�s rod into a snake before Pharaoh of Egypt in Ex 7, the Koran says in 7:124; 26:49, that Pharaoh's magicians believed in the God of Moses. Pharaoh angrily responds by threatening to crucify these magicians. The Koran 12:41, in a different story 400 years earlier, that echoes Gen 40, Joseph interpreted the baker�s dream to mean that Pharaoh would crucify him, whereas scripture say he was hung. Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)

BMZ Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:33am
	Ali Baba, There are two words available. One is Crucifixion and the other is Crucification. Crucifixion was not a Roman invention. It was practised by various ancient peoples like the Persians, Romans and Carthegians. This form of punishment was extended to slaves and others with no civil rights.There was nailing done in the case of crucifixion as the word suggests. However, crucification was simply hanging up a person bodily and fastening him up, leaving him to die. Pharoahs used to hang up people onto trees and wooden crosses (not the cross of the christians or Jesus). Various versions of the New Testament use the term Crucification. This form had some whipping but did not not have whipping with steel chains, balls and spikes, etc. Pharoahs were the worst in the sense that they ordered chopping off say, the right hand and the left leg to render the person invalid and then hung the person on a cross or a tree by fastening him with ropes. Please note that the NT mostly uses the term Crucification and that is different from the Roman Crucifixion. The most important point to note is that Jesus was not a murderor or a bandit or a person with a heinous crime record. As such the Romans would not have inflicted the procedure of crucifixion. Paul, a Jew himself said that they hung him up a tree. Now I don't need to know that the Tree could mean a cross because the timber comes from a tree. Paul's statement is quite clear. That is the only second statement I like from Paul. The first being that he never called Jesus God. Like Peter, Paul also called him only son of God. Edited by bmzsp

Mishmish Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:36am
	"Anyone who has studied crucifixion knows that it was invented by the Romans" I would think you would have studied this before starting the thread. Especially in light of the other crucifixion threads where there is the ongoing confusion of cross and tree, which both were used. Apparently the Romans didn't invent crucifixion, there is even mention of it, or hanging from a tree in Deuteronomy, the OLD Testament: 21:22 "If a man has committed a sin ^(P)worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang* him on a tree,* 21:23 ^(Q)his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for ^(R)he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you ^(S)do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance. History of crucifixion Persia, Alexander and other pre-Roman states Punishment by crucifixion was widely employed in ancient times. It is known to have been used by nations such as those of Assyria, Pharaonic Egypt, Achaemenid Persia, by the Greeks, Carthaginians, Macedonians, and from very early times by the Romans. The earliest recording of a crucifixion was in 519 BC when Darius I, the Persian King of kings, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon. It has been thought, too, that crucifixion was also used by the Jews themselves, and that there is an allusion to it (Deuteronomium xxi. 22, 23) as a punishment to be inflicted, though this reference is commonly associated with lynching. There is evidence that captured pirates were crucified in the port of Athens around the 7th Century BC. Alexander the Great is reputed to have executed 2000 survivors from his siege of the Fenician city of Tyre, as well as the doctor who unsuccessfully treated Alexander's friend Hephaestion. Some historians have also conjectured Alexander crucified Callisthenes, his official historian and biographer, for objecting to the adoption by Alexander of the royal Persian ceremony of adoration. In Carthage, crucifixion was an established mode of execution, which could even be imposed on a general for suffering a major defeat. Source: Wikipedia Edited by Mishmish
	It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)

BMZ Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:39am
	Ali Baba, Thanks for making my point easier by writing: "Gen 40, Joseph interpreted the baker�s dream to mean that Pharaoh would crucify him, whereas scripture say he was hung." That is exactly what I explained. To crucify or hang up a person on a tree or a post is the same. As you said, then the Scripture should accept Paul's view that they hung Jesus up a tree.

Alibaba Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 19 April 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 134	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 12:37pm
	Mishmish, you are speaking here of impalement, not crucifixion. It's interesting to note that Paul did apply this OT curse to Christ, "cursed is any man hung on a tree." However, the Romans added the innovation of the cross bar. Crucifixion refers to a cross, or two intersecting objects - in the case of Christ's crucifixion, we have the cross bar inserted onto the tree (upright stake). Impalement, on the other hand, was not crucifixion, and the reference to it by Mohammed in the Quran is obviously anachronistic (out of place). By the way, Mishmish, the Wikipedia was the source stating that there is no known use of crucifixion in Egypt, other than that mentioned in the Quran. You cannot use the Quran to verify the Quran - bad polemics. Edited by Alibaba

fredifreeloader Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:24pm
	where *exactly* is the proof that the pharaohs practised crucifixion? - also that alexander was a muslim?
	for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16

Mishmish Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:26pm
	By the way, Mishmish, the Wikipedia was the source stating that there is no known use of crucifixion in Egypt, other than that mentioned in the Quran. You cannot use the Quran to verify the Quran - bad polemics. Why not, you use the Bible to verify the Bible all of the time. Where else does it state that Jesus is God? No wait, it doesn't even really state that in the Bible, does it? My bad....
	It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)