Quran and Crucifixion |
Post Reply | Page <1234 8> |
Author | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
fredifreeloader
Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456 |
Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:29pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
bmz - in your second last post - we have crucification, crucifixion and crucixion also where in the new testament does it speak of "crucification" - would that be singapuri for "crucifiction"? Edited by fredifreeloader |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:36pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
It has been claimed by the Christian missionaries that the Qur'an is in error when it mentions crucifixion as a form of punishment in Egypt. They say:
The Qur'an talks about crucifixion as a method of punishment in Egypt during the time of Joseph and Moses. In the story of Joseph, Joseph interprets the dream of his companion in the prison and says:
As for the mention of crucifixion in the time of Moses, when the Pharaoh's magicians believed in the message of Moses, the Pharaoh threatened them by saying:
The Qur'an also supplies a very important piece of information concerning the Pharaoh. The Pharaoh is addressed as the Lord of the Stakes.
A key tool of Qur'anic exegesis is the internal relationships between material in different parts of the Qur'an, expressed by Qur'anic scholars as: al-Qur'an yufassiru ba`duhu ba`dan, i.e., different parts of the Qur'an explain each other. In other words, what is given in a general way in one place is explained in detail in another place. What is given briefly in one place is expanded in another. Using this principle, we can see that the Pharaoh, who is addressed as the Lord of Stakes, perhaps used stakes for crucifying people. Also why is the Pharaoh called the Lord of the Stakes in the Qur'an? Was it because he was the one who had the supreme authority over who meted out the punishment of crucifixion? Did the mutilation of a person precede his crucifixion? This is something that we would like to investigate in this essay. 2. What Is Crucifixion? What Is A Cross? The terms 'Crucifixion' and 'Cross' are widely used but what do they really mean? In the sections which follow we shall attempt to define these terms as accurately and as concisely as possible. Although crucifixion did not originate with the Romans, many reference works tend to discuss only the Roman method of crucifixion used in the time of Christ. To avoid such a limited understanding, numerous references were consulted in order establish the correct meaning and interpretation of these terms. Crucifixion is the act of nailing, binding or impaling a living victim or sometimes a dead person to a cross, stake or tree whether for executing the body or for exposing the corpse. Crucifixion was commonly practiced from the 6th century BCE until the 4th century CE, when it was finally abolished in 337 CE by Constantine I. It was intended to serve as both a severe punishment and a frightful deterrent to others and was unanimously considered the most horrible form of death. The Oxford Companion to the Bible defines "Crucifixion" as:
Similarly, the Anchor Bible Dictionary defines "Crucifixion" as:
This is completely opposite to the Christian missionary Vargo's definition of crucifixion, who claimed that it is a method of "putting a living person on a cross in order to kill him". The New Catholic Encyclopaedia defines "Crucifixion" as:
And in discussing the Christian belief in the crucifixion of Christ, Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary defines "Crucifixion" as:
The word cross is the translation of the Greek stauros. The cross (Greek stauros; Latin crux) was originally a single upright stake or post upon which the victim was either tied, nailed or impaled. Regarding the meaning of this word Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary defines the "Cross" as:
Vine's Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words defines the Greek word stauros as:
According to A Dictionary of Bible, Dealing With Its Language, Literature And Contents, Including The Biblical Theology, in New Testament usage the word stauros seems only to refer the true "cross":
The opinion is that the New Testament usage of stauros refers only to the true "cross" is not strictly true. The term stauros actually has a much wider application, being used to refer to both a single stake and a crossbeam. In Hastings' Dictionary Of The Bible he states:
In New Testament usage stauros primarily refers to an upright stake or beam used as an instrument for punishment:
The word stauros had at least three different meanings in the New Testament alone. The plank which supports the arms of the victim (patibulum in Latin) was itself called stauros (Luke 23:26); the stake or tree trunk on which the patibulum was nailed was also called stauros (John 19:19); and the whole complex together (patibulum and stake) was also called stauros (John 19:25).[10] The Catholic Encyclopaedia (under "Archaeology of the Cross and Crucifix") mentions that a primitive form of crucifixion on trees had long been in use, and that such a tree was also known as a cross:
ORIGINS OF THE ENGLISH WORDS "CRUCIFIXION" & "CROSS" The Greek word for cross stauros (Latin crux) refers primarily to an upright stake or pole.[11] The noun "crucifixion" does not occur in the New Testament, but the corresponding verb "to crucify" appears frequently.[12] In Classical Greek usage the root verb stauroo actually means "to impale" or "to fence with pales" (Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek). However, there appears to be no common word for the "cross" in the Greek, as the word crux (cross) is Latin. The Concise Dictionary Of The Bible states under "Cross":
Concerning the origin of the Latin crux Merriam-Webster's Word Histories states:
Lewis & Short Latin Dictionary also mentions the same meanings:
Furthermore, the word crux is the core of several English words including "crucifixion":
Crucifixion is the act of nailing, binding or impaling a living victim or sometimes a dead person to a cross, stake or a tree, whether for executing the body or for exposing the corpse. Crucifixion was intended to serve as both a severe punishment and a frightful deterrent to others. It was unanimously considered the most horrible form of death. The procedure of crucifixion was subject to wide variation according to the whim of the executioner, but victims were often executed by being impaled on a stake. The cross (Greek stauros; Latin crux) was originally a single upright stake or post upon which the victim was either tied, nailed or impaled. This simple cross was later modified when horizontal crossbeams of various types were added. Scholars are not certain when a crossbeam was added to the simple stake, but even in the Roman period the cross would at times only consist of a single vertical stake. From ancient Greek and Roman writers (such as Herodotus and Seneca) we learn of several forms of crucifixion. Some forms being impalement rather than what we would today describe as crucifixion.[17] In many cases, especially during the Roman period, the execution stake became a vertical pole with a horizontal crossbar placed at some point, and although the period of time at which this happened is uncertain, what is known is that this simple impalement became known as crucifixion. Whether the victim was tied, nailed or impaled to the stake, the same Greek words were still used to described the procedure. Although in New Testament usage the Greek word stauros (cross) is said to refer to a crossbeam, the term actually has a much wider application, being used to refer to both a single stake and a crossbeam. The four most popular representations of the cross are: (i) crux simplex |, a "single piece without transom"; (ii) crux decussata X, or St. Andrew's cross; (iii) crux commissa T, or St. Anthony's cross; and (iv) crux immisaa or Latin cross upon which Jesus was allegedly crucified.[18] A primitive form of crucifixion on trees had long been in use, and such a tree was also known as a cross (crux). Different ideas also prevailed concerning the material form of the cross, and it seems that the word had been frequently used in a broad sense. The Latin word crux was applied to the simple pole, and indicated directly the nature and purpose of this instrument, being derived from the verb crucio, "to torment", "to torture." The practice of crucifixion was finally abolished in 337 by Constantine I out of respect for Jesus Christ, whom he believed died on the cross. According to the Christian missionaries, their evidence that the Qur'an is in error when it mentions crucifixion in Egypt is based on "archaeology and history". If one reads their material, it is neither based on any archaeological evidence nor any historical investigation! Another example of the missionary's unparalleled arrogance about the historical investigation on this issue can be seen here and here. So much for their "crucifiction" theories! Rather ironically, the missionaries have even managed to misrepresent the evidence used to forward their own "facts". The missionaries, referring to the famous Encyclopaedia Britannica, proclaimed they were providing "one authoritative reference":
By the use of [] brackets, the missionaries hoped to convey that the first recorded incidence of crucifixion was in 519 BCE during the reign of Darius I, King of Persia. All they managed to convey however was their own distortion of source material. Let us see what Encyclopedia Britannica actually says:
So this "one authoritative reference" championed by the missionaries turns out to be a reference to their own misunderstanding and distortion. Now that it is abundantly clear that Encyclopaedia Britannica does not provide information in relation to the first recorded instances of crucifixion in world history, let us now deal with the issue of crucifixion in Egypt using the information obtained from Egyptology. HIEROGLYPH FOR CRUCIFYING OR IMPALING A PERSON UPON A STAKE The first thing to establish is whether there exist any hieroglyph that mentions impaling people on stakes. The best place to start is Die Sprache Der Pharaonen Gro�es Handw�rterbuch �gyptisch, a concise Egyptian-German dictionary. The hieroglyph depicting impalement on a stake is shown below.[20] Figure 1: Hieroglyph writing for "Stake. rdj hr = To put on the stake (for punishment)"; det. = determinative, hieroglyph for classifying Egyptian words. Here it shows an impaled man bent upon a stake.[21] A recent edition of Die Sprache Der Pharaonen Gro�es Handw�rterbuch �gyptisch gives even more information on the hieroglyphs showing impalement as shown below.[22] Figure 2: Hieroglyph writing for Pfahl, i.e., "Stake". The interesting ones of 2, 3, 5, and 6. Also see "Pf�hlen". This is the clearest example that people in Egypt were crucified by impaling them on stakes. What about the times in which this punishment was imposed in Egypt? EVIDENCE OF IMPALEMENT IN ANCIENT EGYPT In order to understand the evidence of crucifixion by impaling people on a stake in Egypt, we present a simplified chronology of ancient Egyptian history containing royal names associated with the period for easy reference. Unless otherwise stated, specific dates for particular Dynasties and Kings that we quote within this paper are taken from Nicolas Grimal's book, A History of Ancient Egypt.[23] Please note that the exact Egyptian chronologies are slightly uncertain, and all dates are approximate. The reader will find slightly different schemes used in different books.
Table I: Chronology of Egyptians Dynasties Keeping this in mind, let us now look at the evidence of crucifixion by impaling people on a stake in Egypt. The evidence is arranged in chronological order. A. Theban Account Papyrus (Papyrus Boulaq 18) Papyrus Boulaq 18 is dated to the early Second Intermediate Period reign of Chendjer / Sobekhotep II; both of them kings from the 13th Dynasty. The account in Papyrus Boulaq is given below.[24] Figure 3: Mentioning of impalement in the Theban account papyrus (Papyrus Boulaq 18).
B. Stela Of Amenophis IV (Akhenaten) Amenophis IV or Akhenaten was known as the Heretic King. He was the tenth king of the 18th Dynasty in the New Kingdom Period. This is an interesting stela showing the Nubian prisoners of war being impaled. Figure 4: Excerpts from the Stela of Amenophis IV, showing impalement of Nubian prisoners of war.
Interestingly, The New International Dictionary Of The Bible says:
C. Abydos Decree Of Sethos I At Nauri, Year 4. Sethos I belonged to the 19th Dynasty in the New Kingdom Period. His rule preceded the rule of Ramesses II. Below is his interesting decree at Nauri. Figure 5: Excerpts from the Abydos Decree of Sethos I at Nauri, Year 4.
D. Amada Stela Of Merenptah: Libyan War (Karnak) Merenptah, son of Ramesses II, defeated the threat posed by the Libyans. He belonged to the 19th Dynasty in the New Kingdom Period. Here the prisoners were impaled on the stake on the South of Memphis. Figure 6: Excerpts from the Amada Stela of Merenptah; Libyan War (Karnak).
E. The Abbott Papyrus This is an account of the Great Tomb Robberies of the 20th Dynasty in the New Kingdom Period. Notice that the oath includes mutilation before the actual impalement. Figure 7: Excerpts from the Abbott Papyrus that deals with the oath on pain of mutilation and impalement.
F. Papyrus BM10052 This is an account of the Great Tomb Robberies of the 20th Dynasty in the New Kingdom Period. Notice that the oath includes mutilation before the actual impalement. Figure 8: Excerpts from Papyrus BM10052.
These hieroglyphs are by no means the only ones. There exist others from the New Kingdom Period showing impalements.[31] CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IN ANCIENT EGYPT Ancient Egypt was known for some of the worst kinds of capital punishments. The ancient Egyptians understood the necessary deterrent that these punishments provided. It appears that punishment in ancient Egypt became more severe with the times, especially with the advent of the New Kingdom Period. The punishments in the New Kingdom Period were very brutal and included beatings, mutilation, impalement, and being treated as a slave. The Lexikon Der �gyptologie - an encyclopaedia of Egyptology, gives a brief overview of the different forms of punishment in Egypt under the heading "Strafen" (i.e., punishment / penalties). It says:
Similarly Lurje in his Studien Zum Alt�gyptischen Recht (Studies In The Ancient Egyptian Law) states:
It is clear that one of the severest penalties in ancient Egypt included mutilation, mutilation and then impalement especially in the New Kingdom Period. The mutilation includes cutting off hands, tongue, nose and ears or even castration. Harsh penalties such as crucifying by impalement would be imposed only by either the King or the Vizier. John Wilson had discussed the authority of the King or the Vizier to impose punishments which the interested readers might find useful.[34] Thus the Qur'anic address of referring to Pharaoh as "Lord of Stakes" certainly fits very well with the available evidence. It also adds irony due to the fact that even though the Pharaoh claimed to be god, the greatest act of his lordship was confined to killing people by putting them on the stake. When did Joseph and Moses enter Egypt? As far as the missionaries are concerned, they had claimed the dating provided by them is "conservative".
The "conservative" dating of the missionaries correspond quite closely with the New Chronology proposed by David Rohls in his book A Test of Time.[35] This is the revisionist dating not the "conservative" dating. Fortunately, we have A Waste of Time homepage on the internet that includes a collection of articles written by scholars of Egyptology such as Professor Kenneth Kitchen as well as amateurs refuting many of the claims of Rohl. Even the evangelical Christians do not take Rohls' work seriously. We wonder why the missionaries insist on using such discredited scholarship to advance their fictitious arguments. The majority of scholars say that Joseph entered Egypt during the time of the Hyksos. The Hyksos belonged to a group of mixed Semitic-Asiatics who infiltrated Egypt during the Middle Kingdom and became rulers of Lower Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period. They formed the 15th and 16th Dynasties. The generally accepted theory appears to be that Moses lived during the reign of at least two kings, Rameses II and his successor Merneptah in the New Kingdom Period. Let us now gather the evidence that we have acquired so far about crucifixion in Egypt. Table II shows the ruler of Egypt when people were crucified by impaling on stakes as well as the time when Joseph and Moses entered Egypt.
Table II: This Table provides information about the ruler of Egypt when people were crucified by impaling on stakes and the time when Joseph and Moses entered Egypt. What is interesting to note is that the earliest available evidence of the occurrence of crucifixion in Egypt is seen in the Papyrus Boulaq 18 from the time of Sobekhotep II / Chendjer of the 13th Dynasty in the Second Intermediate Period. Joseph, according to majority of scholars, entered Egypt during the rule of the Hyksos who formed the 15th and 16th Dynasties in the Second Intermediate Period. This means that crucifixion happened in Egypt even before Joseph entered Egypt. Crucifixion also happened before Moses came to Egypt, during the Amenophis IV (Akhenaten). It also happened after the event of Exodus as seen in the papyri related to the Great Tomb Robberies of the 20th Dynasty. This completely refutes the claim of the Christian missionaries that the mention of crucifixion in the Qur'an during the time of Joseph and Moses is historically inaccurate. Contrary to the missionaries' own imaginative definition, crucifixion, as attested in a variety of sources, can be understood as the act of nailing, binding or impaling a living victim or sometimes a dead person to a cross, stake or tree, whether for executing the body or for exposing the corpse. Consequently, the cross was originally a single upright stake or post upon which the victim was either tied, nailed or impaled. Accordingly, as we have demonstrated, it would not only be inappropriate but also historically inaccurate to restrict our understanding of the scope and application of crucifixion as it was practiced during Roman times, especially throughout the early Christian period. With regard to ancient Egyptian history, we can observe a progression in the 'cruelty' of punishments with time, acutely so during the New Kingdom period (c. 1552 � c. 1069 BCE). Without delving into the intricacies of ancient Egyptian criminal law, we can undoubtedly observe that one method of punishment was crucifying people by impalement. The earliest extant evidence for this severe form of punishment is found during the reign of Sobekhotep II / Chendjer in the Second Intermediate period (c. 1674 � c. 1553 BCE), as indicated by the Papyrus Boulaq 18. Moving forward to the New Kingdom period (c. 1552 � c. 1069 BCE), we have numerous papyri, including the Abbot Papyrus and Papyrus BM10052, as well as numerous stele including the Stela of Amenophis IV, Abydos Decree of Sethos I at Nauri and Amada Stela of Merenptah, indicating the punishment of crucifixion by impalement. These dates correspond well with the dates the majority of scholars attribute to Joseph and Moses entry into Egypt. Therefore, based on this historical appreciation of ancient Egyptian history, crucifixion, as evidenced in a variety of hieroglyph papyri manuscripts and stela, was practiced as impalement, and, this form of punishment was already well established by the time Joseph entered Egypt. In sum, the story as narrated in the Qur'an correlates very well with the available evidence. Equipped with an academically accepted chronology of ancient Egyptian history and an accurate historical understanding of what the words 'cross' and 'crucifixion' actually mean, once again, we find the missionaries making unsubstantiated claims.[36] Their "facts" are based on unproven ancient Egyptian chronologies that have received scathing reviews from fellow academics not to mention their own theologians. Combined with a superficial understanding regarding the concepts of "cross" and "crucifixion", and how this form of punishment was expressed by different cultures and civilisations (both ancient and modern), the missionaries struggle to form any type of cogent argumentation and instead distort source material and make extensive use of soundbites. In fact, the only thing in error here is the missionaries' "research methodology", which, in this particular instance, can properly be characterised as lightweight and schizophrenic. Perhaps it is best to conclude with H.S. Smith's observation in his book The Fortress Of Buhen: The Inscriptions:
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
fredifreeloader
Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456 |
Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:43pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
- have you dumped all this stuff to prove that jesus lived at the same time as moses? Check your language and comply with guidelines, and engage yourself in appropriate interfaith dialogue. --Peacemaker Edited by peacemaker |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Angela
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:49pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Now Mishmish, that's what I call a rational adult debate. I need time to read and respond. But thanks for showing others how its done. You, George and BMZ could make this one interesting. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AbRah2006
Guest Group Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 354 |
Posted: 17 May 2006 at 10:47pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I found some good historical documentation of crucifixion (not impalement, by the way), but crucifixion and its origin and history: 4. Crucifixion 1400 years too soon! Encyclopedia Britannica reports that crucifixion did not exist any earlier that about 500 BC, yet the Koran has passages that speak of crucifixion as early as 1900 BC. Muslim scholar Malik Farid, in his translation of the Koran, says in footnote 1033, "Incidentally, the verse shows that even as early as in the time of Moses the punishment of death by crucifixion was in vogue" (The Holy Qur�an, Arabic Text And English Translation With Commentary, Edited by Malik Ghulam Farid, Comment on 7:125, footnote 1033) Rather than admit that the perfect Koran makes a huge historical blunder, Muslim's merely re-write history and in spite of the universal record of history and archeology, say the Egyptians practiced crucifixion.Although crucifixion did not exist any earlier that about 500 BC, the Koran has passages that speak of crucifixion as early as 1900 BC. First, in 1500 B.C. when Moses turned Aaron�s rod into a snake before Pharaoh of Egypt in Ex 7, the Koran says in 7:124; 26:49, that Pharaoh's magicians believed in the God of Moses. Pharaoh angrily responds by threatening to crucify these magicians. The Koran 12:41, in a different story 400 years earlier, that echoes Gen 40, Joseph interpreted the baker�s dream to mean that Pharaoh would crucify him, whereas scripture say he was hung. Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion) ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ Here is my response to refute the Alibaba's wild allegation against Quran: What is the definition of crucify? (1) Crucify means to kill by nailing onto a cross (Source: TheFreeDictionary ).....(2)To put (a person) to death by nailing or binding to a cross. (Yahoo education) Crucifixion is an ancient method of execution, where the victim was tied or nailed to a large wooden cross and left to hang there until dead.(Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Two methods of Crucifixion were followed in the infliction of the punishment of crucifixion. In both of these the criminal was first stripped naked, and bound to an upright stake, where he was scourged. After this, the victim was dressed again, and if able was made to drag the cross (usually weighing 150 lbs or more) to the place of execution. At this point he was again stripped naked, and was either fastened to it, or impaled upon it, and left to die. In this method, the crux simplex of Justus Lipsius, a single stake was used. The other method: after the scourging at the stake, the criminal was made to carry a gibbet, formed of two transverse bars of wood, to the place of execution, and he was then fastened to it by iron nails driven through the outstretched arms and through the ankles. Sometimes this was done as the cross lay on the ground, and it was then lifted into position. In other cases the criminal was made to ascend by a ladder, and was then fastened to the cross. Probably the feebleness, or state of collapse, from which the criminal must often have suffered, had much to do in deciding this. However the writers of Acts wrote about the so-called crucifixion of Jesus : Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree. The writers of Mark wrote about the so-called crucifixion of Jesus: Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. Note: (1)The tree and the cross are not the same thing! (ii) The NT contradicts itself by saying that Jesus was crucified on the TREE or CROSS so the contradiction has invalidated the so-called crucifixion of Jesus! Contradictory statements are not acceptable to prove that Jesus was crucified! If you bring your case to the court and giving contradictory testimonies, your case will be thrown out of the court! CRUCIFIXION [crucifixion] hanging on a cross , in ancient times a method of capital punishment . It was practiced widely in the Middle East but not by the Greeks. The Romans, who may have borrowed it from Carthage, reserved it for slaves and despised malefactors. They used it frequently, as in the civil wars and in putting down the Jewish opposition. Crucifixion was probably at first a modification of hanging on a tree or impaling on a pole, and from such a connection come the synonyms tree and rood (i.e., rod or pole) . The Romans used mostly the T cross, the Latin cross, or St. Andrew's cross. It was common practice among the Romans to scourge the prisoner and to require him to carry his cross to the place of crucifixion. The prisoner was either nailed or tied to the cross, and, to induce more rapid death, his legs were often broken.(Source: Encyclopedia.com) There are some verses of Quran and of the Bible about the the earliest known crucifixion: Quran 7: 124 . Said Pharoah: "Surely I shall have your hands and feet cut off upon alternate sides. Then I shall crucify you every one." Quran 12:41: O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire." Genesis 40:19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee. Joseph is one of the best-known figures in the Hebrew Bible, famous for his coat of many colours and his God-given ability to interpret dreams. Owing to jealousy from his brothers, he was sold as a slave, eventually working under the Egyptian Potiphar, but was later freed, and became the chief adviser (vizier) to the Egyptian Pharaoh around 1600 BC. Those verses of the Bible and Quran prove that the crucifixion happened during Joseph's era that was around 1600 BC . Therefore the Holy Quran is right about the crucifixion!
Edited by AbRah2006 |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
BMZ
Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:38pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Question of the Day? I don't understand why must we go to the extent of crucifixing a man who has already been been crucified! Let us see who says he was curicified? All from NKJV: Matthew 27:35 Then they crucified Him,....... Mark15:24: And when they crucified Him........ Luke23:33 And when they ........Calvary, there they crucified him..... John10:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus...... The NIV version titles Crucifixion but crucifies him. It is thus established that he was crucified which means hung up on the post or cross by fastening him, not by nailing him to the cross. Having established this, we can now move onto the next stage presenting reasonable doubts, showing that Jesus escaped or was made to escape. BMZ
Edited by bmzsp |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
George
Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
Posted: 18 May 2006 at 8:43am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Question of the Day? I don't understand why must we go to the extent of crucifixing a man who has already been been crucified! All from NKJV: Matthew 27:35 Then they crucified Him,....... Mark15:24: And when the crucified Him........ Luke23:33 And when they ........Calvary, there they crucified him..... John10:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus...... The NIV version titles Crucifixion but crucifies him. It is thus established that he was crucified which means hung up on the post or cross by fastening him, not by nailing him to the cross. Where is these Scriptures does it say that Jesus was not nailed to the cross? Crucifixion is a noun crucify is a verb. [/QUOTE] John 20: 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, �We have seen the Lord.� Do you think the disciples were looking at rope burns, BMZ? Notice they mention the wound in Jesus' side where he was thrust with a sword.
Having established this, we can now move onto the next stage presenting reasonable doubts, showing that Jesus escaped or was made to escape. Not so fast. Nothing has been established. Peace |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
BMZ
Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
Posted: 18 May 2006 at 8:48am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fredi, I have fixed that up. Have no desire to quote you on that here again. Scholars have guessed that it could have been Alexander, the one who put on a two-horn safety helmet. But when I read Alexander's record, turned out he was bad. Thus he cannot be Zulqarnain. Must have been some other "two-horned" noble man who travelled in the way of Lord God. Edited by bmzsp |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post Reply | Page <1234 8> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |