IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Quran and Crucifixion  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedQuran and Crucifixion

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 8>
Author
Message
George View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 14 April 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 406
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 8:49am

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

There are two words available. One is Crucifixion and the other is Crucification.

Crucifixion was not a Roman invention. It was practised by various ancient peoples like the Persians, Romans and Carthegians. This form of punishment was extended to slaves and others with no civil rights.There was nailing done in the case of crucifixion as the word suggests. 

You mean Crucifixion instead of Crucification, don't you?

http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeology-crucifixion-cross.h tm

Quote

Although in the Old Testament the corpses of blasphemers or idolaters punished by stoning might be handged "on a tree" as further humiliation (Deut. 21:23), actual crucifixion was not introduced in Palestine until Hellenistic times. The Seleucid Antiochus IV Epiphanes crucified those Jews who would not accept hellenization (Josephus Ant. xii.240-41; cf 1 Macc. 1:44-50).

Historical findings have substantiated the traditional cross. One finding is a graffito1 dating to shortly after 200 A.D., taken from the walls of the Roman Palatine. It is a drawing of a crucified ass; a mockery of a Christian prisoner who worships Christ. The Romans were no doubt amused that Christians worshiped this Jesus whom they had crucified on a cross. 

In the days of the OT, people were put to death and then hung on a tree, or crucified.  In other words, it was not the hanging on the tree that killed them.  They were already dead and hung up on a tree as a warning to others not to make the same mistake the one hanging on the tree made.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

However, crucification was simply hanging up a person bodily and fastening him up, leaving him to die. Pharoahs used to hang up people onto trees and wooden crosses (not the cross of the christians or Jesus). 

See above.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Various versions of the New Testament use the term Crucification. This form had some whipping but did not not have whipping with steel chains, balls and spikes, etc. Pharoahs were the worst in the sense that they ordered chopping off say, the right hand and the left leg to render the person invalid and then hung the person on a cross or a tree by fastening him with ropes. 

Care to quote the NT Scriptures where the term "Crucification" is used?

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Please note that the NT mostly uses the term Crucification and that is different from the Roman Crucifixion. The most important point to note is that Jesus was not a murderor or a bandit or a person with a heinous crime record. As such the Romans would not have inflicted the procedure of crucixion. 

Jesus was crucified on a cross for claiming his divinity according to the Jews and a threat to Rome.  And, now you are using the word " crucixion."  What is up with that?

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Paul, a Jew himself said that they hung him up a tree. 

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ the Power and Wisdom of God ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Galatians 5:11
And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.

Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Ephesians 2:16
and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Philippians 3:18
For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Colossians 1:20
and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Now I don't need to know that the Tree could mean a cross because the timber comes from a tree. Paul's statement is quite clear.

You are referring to Galatians 3:13?

Quote

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, �Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree�), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Paul is referring to Deuteronomy 21:22-23

Quote

22 �If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God. (from the Greek)

21:22 When a man is legally sentenced to death and executed, you must then hang him hang him on a gallows. 21:23 However, you may not allow his body to remain on the gallows overnight, but you must bury it on the same day. Since a person who has been hanged is a curse to God, you must not [let it] defile the land that God your Lord is giving you as a heritage.

Paul did not say that Jesus was not crucified on a cross.  Notice the above Scriptures say that the person was put to death and then hung on a tree.  See explanation above.

Death on the cross was the means of death.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

That is the only second statement I like from Paul.

Do you like it even better now that I have explained it to you?

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

 The first being that he never called Jesus God. Like Peter, Paul also called him only son of God.

Kind of a funny comment coming from you since you credit St. Paul for "inventing" the Trinity. 

You are inferring that you like the expression "Son of God" when spoken by Paul and Peter.  Funny again.  I would think you would have a problem with that, since Allah has no sons.

Peace

Back to Top
Patty View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 14 September 2001
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2382
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 8:50am

Dear BMZ, the act of "crucifying (verb) is crucifixion (noun).  I think we have a language problem here with English being spoken.  I don't believe you are intentionally mixing the words to mean different things.

God's Peace,

Patty

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
Back to Top
BMZ View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1852
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 9:04am

George,

I am not good at American English. I feel I am more towards the Queen's.  I hope Fredi, the free loader and Ali Baba will clarify.

If "Crucifixion" is a noun, then the verb will be "to crucifix". When  "Crucification" is a noun, then the verb will be "to crucify".

English is my 3rd language after my mother tongue. Yes, I know about the doubting Thomas. But have you ever thought that the doubting Thomas is always used to make a point. How can one believe that doubter's testimony when he was always full of doubts from day one? have you noticed that question is only accredited to the doubting Thomas? Mary Magdalene saw him first, believed and never did she doubt. I suspect he was presented that way to make points.  

OK! We will go slow on the topic.  

Back to Top
George View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 14 April 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 406
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 9:10am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

George,

I am not good at American English. I feel I am more towards the Queen's.  I hope Fredi, the free loader and Ali Baba will clarify.

If "Crucifixion" is a noun, then the verb will be "to crucifix". When  "Crucification" is a noun, then the verb will be "to crucify".

English is my 3rd language after my mother tongue. Yes, I know about the doubting Thomas. But have you ever thought that the doubting Thomas is always used to make a point. How can one believe that doubter's testimony when he was always full of doubts from day one? have you noticed that question is only accredited to the doubting Thomas? Mary Magdalene saw him first, believed and never did she doubt. I suspect he was presented that way to make points.  

OK! We will go slow on the topic.  

Don't try, BMZ.  Just listen to me and Patty.

Back to Top
BMZ View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1852
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 9:23am

Hi Patty,

I may be wrong. Crucification is also a noun. "To crucify" looks more appropriate to me.

In fact I am not mixing. I am trying to separate the two.

BR

BMZ

Back to Top
AbRah2006 View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 354
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 9:40am
Alibaba wrote:

Frankly, I was rather shocked to read that the Quran refers to crucifixion - but seemingly out of place historically.  These verses our fairly anachronistic, wouldn't you say:

"Surah 7:120-124

120: And the wizards fell down prostrate,

121: Crying: We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,

122: The Lord of Moses and Aaron.

123: Pharaoh said: Ye believe in Him before I give you leave! Lo! this is the plot that ye have plotted in the city that ye may drive its people hence. But ye shall come to know!

124: Surely I shall have your hands and feet cut off upon alternate sides. Then I shall crucify you every one.

Surah 12:41

41: O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire."

Anyone who has studied crucifixion knows that it was invented by the Romans - who  nailed a person on a cross bar and then placed the person and the cross bar on an upraised stake or tree. It seems rather out of place in the Quran, especially its implication that the Egyptians used this method of execution.  There is no archeological evidence to support this.

I found some good historical documentation of crucifixion (not impalement, by the way), but crucifixion and its origin and history:

4. Crucifixion 1400 years too soon!

Encyclopedia Britannica reports that crucifixion did not exist any earlier that about 500 BC, yet the Koran has passages that speak of crucifixion as early as 1900 BC. Muslim scholar Malik Farid, in his translation of the Koran, says in footnote 1033, "Incidentally, the verse shows that even as early as in the time of Moses the punishment of death by crucifixion was in vogue" (The Holy Qur�an, Arabic Text And English Translation With Commentary, Edited by Malik Ghulam Farid, Comment on 7:125, footnote 1033) Rather than admit that the perfect Koran makes a huge historical blunder, Muslim's merely re-write history and in spite of the universal record of history and archeology, say the Egyptians practiced crucifixion.

Although crucifixion did not exist any earlier that about 500 BC, the Koran has passages that speak of crucifixion as early as 1900 BC. First, in 1500 B.C. when Moses turned Aaron�s rod into a snake before Pharaoh of Egypt in Ex 7, the Koran says in 7:124; 26:49, that Pharaoh's magicians believed in the God of Moses. Pharaoh angrily responds by threatening to crucify these magicians. The Koran 12:41, in a different story 400 years earlier, that echoes Gen 40, Joseph interpreted the baker�s dream to mean that Pharaoh would crucify him, whereas scripture say he was hung.

Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)

____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________

Here is my response to refute the Alibaba's wild allegation against Quran:

What is the definition of crucify? (1) Crucify means to kill by nailing onto a cross (Source: TheFreeDictionary ).....(2)To put (a person) to death by nailing or binding to a cross. (Yahoo education)

Crucifixion is an ancient method of execution, where the victim was tied or nailed to a large wooden cross and left to hang there until dead.(Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Two methods of Crucifixion were followed in the infliction of the punishment of crucifixion. In both of these the criminal was first stripped naked, and bound to an upright stake, where he was scourged. After this, the victim was dressed again, and if able was made to drag the cross (usually weighing 150 lbs or more) to the place of execution. At this point he was again stripped naked, and was either fastened to it, or impaled upon it, and left to die. In this method, the crux simplex of Justus Lipsius, a single stake was used.

The other method: after the scourging at the stake, the criminal was made to carry a gibbet, formed of two transverse bars of wood, to the place of execution, and he was then fastened to it by iron nails driven through the outstretched arms and through the ankles. Sometimes this was done as the cross lay on the ground, and it was then lifted into position. In other cases the criminal was made to ascend by a ladder, and was then fastened to the cross. Probably the feebleness, or state of collapse, from which the criminal must often have suffered, had much to do in deciding this.

However the writers of Acts wrote about the so-called crucifixion of Jesus : 

 Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree.

The writers of Mark wrote about the so-called crucifixion of Jesus: Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Note: (1)The tree and the cross are not the same thing! (ii) The NT contradicts itself by saying that Jesus was crucified on the TREE or CROSS so the contradiction has invalidated the so-called crucifixion of Jesus! Contradictory statements are not acceptable to prove that Jesus was crucified! If you bring your case to the court and giving contradictory testimonies, your case will be thrown out of the court!

CRUCIFIXION [crucifixion] hanging on a cross , in ancient times a method of capital punishment . It was practiced widely in the Middle East but not by the Greeks. The Romans, who may have borrowed it from Carthage, reserved it for slaves and despised malefactors. They used it frequently, as in the civil wars and in putting down the Jewish opposition.

Crucifixion was probably at first a modification of hanging on a tree or impaling on a pole, and from such a connection come the synonyms tree and rood (i.e., rod or pole) . The Romans used mostly the T cross, the Latin cross, or St. Andrew's cross. It was common practice among the Romans to scourge the prisoner and to require him to carry his cross to the place of crucifixion. The prisoner was either nailed or tied to the cross, and, to induce more rapid death, his legs were often broken.(Source: Encyclopedia.com)

There are some  verses  of Quran and of the Bible about the the earliest known crucifixion:

 Quran 7: 124 . Said Pharoah: "Surely I shall have your hands and feet cut off upon alternate sides. Then I shall crucify you every one."

Quran 12:41: O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire."

 Genesis 40:19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.

Joseph is one of the best-known figures in the Hebrew Bible, famous for his coat of many colours and his God-given ability to interpret dreams. Owing to jealousy from his brothers, he was sold as a slave, eventually working under the Egyptian Potiphar, but was later freed, and became the chief adviser (vizier) to the Egyptian Pharaoh around 1600 BC.

Those verses of the Bible and Quran prove that the crucifixion happened during Joseph's era that was around 1600 BC . Therefore the Holy Quran is right about the crucifixion! Therefore I dare to say that the crucifixion was practised long before 1600 BC.

The Bible places the birth of Moses around 1527 BC  so crucifixion happened during Moses' era so once again Islam is correct about the crucifixion!

Therefore it is you Alibaba who make a huge historical blunder !



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
Back to Top
Alibaba View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group

Joined: 19 April 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 134
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 9:44am

I note that the words "is it a lie?" have been removed from the title of this thread.  Are we agreed, therefore, that we will no longer use the word "lie" and "lies" to refer to one another's beliefs, or to title threads?  For instance, the closed thread: The Crucifixion of Jesus is a Lie.  Perhaps the moderators should remove the word "lie."

 
 

Back to Top
peacemaker View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Male
Joined: 29 December 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3057
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 9:47am

Alibaba,

Your request will be complied. And I hope that you would also comply with guidelines by appropriately engaging yourself in Interfaith dialogue.

Peace

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 8>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.