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no compulsion - the latest......
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Mishmish View Drop Down
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Points: 1694 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 2:07pm

Fred: Shariah Law as practiced by the Prophet did not affect non-Muslims. They were never judged under Shariah. Nor were women treated in a manner less than men. Also, it was practiced in the correct manner. That can not be said of any Muslim majority society today.

However, name me a society where all laws are practiced correctly? Where money and power have no influence? Name me any society on the earth today that practices law in a manner that is 100% fair and equitable.  
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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herjihad View Drop Down
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Originally posted by fredifreeloader fredifreeloader wrote:

Originally posted by AbRah2006 AbRah2006 wrote:

If you think that the secular laws give you freedom then you are wrong for there is no absolute freedom in the West.

what is "absolute freedom", and who says we have it in the west?

The Islamic judges are instructed to be fair to both sides (the accuser and the accused).

how can they be fair when, under the rules of sharia law, the word of a muslim is taken over the word of a non-muslim, and the word of a man is taken over the word of a woman.  islam is perhaps the most discriminatory thing on earth

In the west, the outcome of a trial depend on the lawyers...Successful, experienced and expensive lawyers ensure good outcome of a trial if you have so much money to hire them...Question: What will happen to poor people who have little money to spend on the trial in the West?

answer: they get legal aid

Bismillah,

NO!  THEY DON'T!!!  Who told you that?  Have you tried to get legal aid?  Have you noticed or paid attention to the lack of legal advice for poor people here?
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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herjihad View Drop Down
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Points: 2473 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herjihad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 2:15pm

Originally posted by Jenni Jenni wrote:

I am against sharia law being implemented anywhere at the moment, as the implementers are usually backwards and uneducated. There is a push for this by some in Pakistan as well and the educated people in the country are TOTALLY against it. It is not the problem with Quran it is the problem with corrupt men who interpret things to give them the most influence and control of people, especially women and non Muslims. It is not like they are doing it to help people and give people more productive lives. You can not force people to believe, and some of the most wild and unbeleiving muslims I have met are from saudi arabia. The overload of religiousity there actually turned them off to thier religon. Be a good example, help people, give women education and fair treatment, show what is great about Islam and that will turn people around!

Bismillah,

I agree, Sister Jenni.  (Don't you think they should ask us to be their advisors on any laws they think up?  At least they could get our point of view on it!)  Some of the laws that they claim to be Islaamic in the so-called Shariah laws seem to have come from Mars, definitely not Venus!
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Alibaba View Drop Down
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Points: 134 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alibaba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 3:39pm
bmz:  the Holy Spirit is the one you appear to be slandering every day.
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Patty View Drop Down
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Points: 2382 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 4:23pm

herjihad posted this:

"NO!  THEY DON'T!!!  Who told you that?  Have you tried to get legal aid?  Have you noticed or paid attention to the lack of legal advice for poor people here?"

Here is the definition of Legal Aid Society in America:

legal aid society n. an organization formed to assist persons who have limited or no financial means but need legal help, usually sponsored by the local bar association's donations, sometimes with some local governmental financial support. Such societies examine the assets and income of the applicant, decide if the person has a legitimate need for legal services, give counselling, provide mediation, prepare simple documents, and if absolutely necessary give free legal assistance from a panel of volunteer attorneys. Originally most prevalent in larger cities, legal aid societies exist throughout the country. They do not usually provide assistance in criminal cases because indigent defendants are constitutionally entitled to representation by a public defender or appointed private counsel paid by the government. Some societies provide referral services to help a person find a suitable attorney, but normally referral is made by the local bar association.

God's Peace to You,

Patty
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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BMZ View Drop Down
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Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 5:35pm

Ali Baba,

From you: "bmz:  the Holy Spirit is the one you appear to be slandering every day."

I don't slander. Please don't feel that way. Let me put three not-so-dumb questions again to you:

Does God "the Father" have his own spirit or soul? Does Jesus "the son" have his own spirit or soul? Does the Holy Spirit, which you have in your mind, live on it's own or it is the same spirit shared by God, the Father and God the Son or it is commonly shared by both?

Please answer each question separately.
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AbRah2006 View Drop Down
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Points: 354 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 7:41pm
[QUOTE=herjihad][QUOTE=fredifreeloader][QUOTE=AbRah2006]

If you think that the secular laws give you freedom then you are wrong for there is no absolute freedom in the West.

Fredifreeloader's statement: what is "absolute freedom", and who says we have it in the west?

----------------------------------------------------------

 

My Answer: It is the western who proudly admit that they have freedom to do whatever they like to do while accusing Muslims falsely of not having freedom. They claim that they practise religious freedom  while persecuting Muslims for practising their beliefs. For example Muslim women cover their hairs for their beliefs but the Christians use their laws etc to force the Muslim women to expose their hairs.Some Zionists and  Christians in Europe, USA etc slander the prophet Muhammad by drawing cartoons to degrade him in the name of freedom. It is an irony that when an educated European says that Holocaust is fake and it did not exist, the Zionists and Christians charge him in the court! So where is the freedom declared by the Western people? This is the hypocrisy of the West!

In Muslim nations Muslims have their freedom to practise their human rights and beliefs and so have the non-Muslims. Proof: There are non-Muslims and their churches , synogue, temple in Muslim nations and they are free to practise their beliefs. The western people accuse Muslim nations of persecuting non-Muslims for their beliefs falsely. If they are persecuted by Muslims how come they enjoy freedom in Muslims such as doing business and become rich, holding high positions in Muslim governments and non-government firms and organisation, enjoying the same rights as Muslims do etc. Why don't they go to the western nations for good? Nobody will stop them if they decide to do that! It is an irony that they carry on living in Muslim nations enjoying freedom while the western people slander them by saying that the non-Muslims are being oppressed by Muslims!

I will refute two other statements of yours soon!



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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AbRah2006 View Drop Down
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Points: 354 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2006 at 9:06pm

AbRah2006's statement: The Islamic judges are instructed to be fair to both sides (the accuser and the accused).

Fredifreeloader's statement: how can they be fair when, under the rules of sharia law, the word of a muslim is taken over the word of a non-muslim, and the word of a man is taken over the word of a woman.  islam is perhaps the most discriminatory thing on earth

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ -----------

Answer:  Islamic Judicial System

"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealing and let not the hatred of others to you, make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah for Allah is well acquainted with all that you do" [ Quran Al-Maida: 8].

In the eyes of the judiciary there can be no bias against the non-Muslims in favour of Muslims. The judge (Qadi) is concerned with evidence permitted by Shari'ah and nothing else. There are many examples of cases where the non-Muslim was ruled in favour over a Muslim.

During the rule of Umar bin al-Khattab (ra), certain Muslims had stolen a piece of land belonging to a Jew and then constructed a mosque upon it. This clearly violated the rights of the Jew who was a dhimmi. Umar (ra) ordered the demolition of the mosque and the restoration of the land to the Jew.

In another case, during the rule of Imam Ali (ra), a Jew stole a shield from the Khaleefah. Ali (ra) took the matter to court and brought his son as a witness. The judge ruled against Khaleefah and stated that a son cannot be a witness for a father in court. When the Jew witnessed such fairness, he voluntarily confessed that he stole the shield and embraced Islam.

With regard to the Dhimmis (Non-Muslims living under Muslim protection), Islam ordered that they must be treated justly. It gave them rights and imposed duties on them. It gave them security in the Muslim world, and imposed blood-money and expiation for an act of killing committed against anyone among them. Allah says:

"If he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, blood-money shall be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed" (Quran 4:92)

Furthermore, in conformity with the saying of the Prophet (peace be on him), Islam prohibits the slaying of a Dhimmi living in the Muslim world.

"Whoever kills a person under the contract of protection shall never smell the scent of Paradise" (Ibn Majah)

Moreover, Islam does not forbid its followers from being charitable towards those who do not fight them or expel them from their homes. Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (Quran 60:8)

And:

"And let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do" (Quran 5:8)

Conclusion: In the eyes of the Islamic judiciary there can be no bias against the non-Muslims in favour of Muslims. Islam respects the religious freedom of non-Muslims: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower

[Qur'an 2:256]


 

 
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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