Jesus = God’s Word

Yankovich,

There are a number of threads already discussing the issue. Please read over them and join those discussions. We would love your input.

019.016
YUSUFALI: Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
PICKTHAL: And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
SHAKIR: And mention Marium in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place;

019.017
YUSUFALI: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
PICKTHAL: And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
SHAKIR: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.

019.018
YUSUFALI: She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
PICKTHAL: She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
SHAKIR: She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil).

019.019
YUSUFALI: He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
PICKTHAL: He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
SHAKIR: He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.

019.020
YUSUFALI: She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
PICKTHAL: She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
SHAKIR: She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?

019.021
YUSUFALI: He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
PICKTHAL: He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
SHAKIR: He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed.

019.022
YUSUFALI: So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
PICKTHAL: And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.
SHAKIR: So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

019.023
YUSUFALI: And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
PICKTHAL: And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!
SHAKIR: And the throes (of childbirth) compelled her to betake herself to the trunk of a palm tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten!

019.024
YUSUFALI: But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
PICKTHAL: Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee,
SHAKIR: Then (the child) called out to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely your Lord has made a stream to flow beneath you;

019.025
YUSUFALI: "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
PICKTHAL: And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.
SHAKIR: And shake towards you the trunk of the palmtree, it will drop on you fresh ripe dates:

019.026
YUSUFALI: "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
PICKTHAL: So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.
SHAKIR: So eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent Allah, so I shall not speak to any man today.

019.027
YUSUFALI: At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
PICKTHAL: Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
SHAKIR: And she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said: O Marium! surely you have done a strange thing.

019.028
YUSUFALI: "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
PICKTHAL: O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.
SHAKIR: O sister of Haroun! your father was not a bad man, nor, was your mother an unchaste woman.

019.029
YUSUFALI: But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
PICKTHAL: Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?
SHAKIR: But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?

019.030
YUSUFALI: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
PICKTHAL: He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
SHAKIR: He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;

019.031
YUSUFALI: "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
PICKTHAL: And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
SHAKIR: And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live;

019.032
YUSUFALI: "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
PICKTHAL: And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
SHAKIR: And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;

019.033
YUSUFALI: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
PICKTHAL: Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
SHAKIR: And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

019.034
YUSUFALI: Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
PICKTHAL: Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
SHAKIR: Such is Isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.

019.035
YUSUFALI: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
PICKTHAL: It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a ! son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is.

019.036
YUSUFALI: Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
PICKTHAL: And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path.
SHAKIR: And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path.

Also, got to

http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

The explanation of "the Word" (logos) I believe Tertuillian gave was that Jesus came out of God but did not diminish God in any way. The analogy was as a flame can be multiplied by touching to a new candle, Jesus issued forth as a divine expression.

It is only when one mentally limits God to the miniscule abilities of his creations does Jesus as God become impossible.

Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

bmz: Well, thanks for that explanantion. But, then that means that Jesus did not exist before He was in Mary's womb - right? What about the Bible vs. that says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Do you think that this is correct (probably not if you are Muslim), or was added to the manuscript, or is a corruption. Or do you believe that the Apostle John really, really wrote that? And, if he did, was he wrong?

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Yankovich Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 18	Post Options Post Reply Quote Yankovich Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Jesus = God’s Word Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:08pm
	I'd like to know exactly what Muslims believe about Jesus Christ, the Savior of Christians. Do you believe He is God's Son? Do you believe He is somehow God's Word? After posting over on Beliefnet, I found some very different view among Muslims on this issue. Why are there such different views?
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Angela Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555	Post Options Post Reply Quote Angela Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:13pm
	Yankovich, http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4518& ;PN=1 http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4893& ;PN=1 http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4807& ;PN=2 There are a number of threads already discussing the issue. Please read over them and join those discussions. We would love your input.

Yankovich Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 18	Post Options Post Reply Quote Yankovich Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:17pm
	Okay, but what did my Muslim friend mean by this: Jesus is God's Word. He spoke and he was?
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Angela Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555	Post Options Post Reply Quote Angela Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:34pm
	019.016 YUSUFALI: Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. PICKTHAL: And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, SHAKIR: And mention Marium in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place; 019.017 YUSUFALI: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. PICKTHAL: And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. SHAKIR: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man. 019.018 YUSUFALI: She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah." PICKTHAL: She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing. SHAKIR: She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil). 019.019 YUSUFALI: He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son. PICKTHAL: He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. SHAKIR: He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy. 019.020 YUSUFALI: She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" PICKTHAL: She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste? SHAKIR: She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? 019.021 YUSUFALI: He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed." PICKTHAL: He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained. SHAKIR: He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed. 019.022 YUSUFALI: So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. PICKTHAL: And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place. SHAKIR: So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place. 019.023 YUSUFALI: And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" PICKTHAL: And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten! SHAKIR: And the throes (of childbirth) compelled her to betake herself to the trunk of a palm tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten! 019.024 YUSUFALI: But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; PICKTHAL: Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee, SHAKIR: Then (the child) called out to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely your Lord has made a stream to flow beneath you; 019.025 YUSUFALI: "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. PICKTHAL: And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee. SHAKIR: And shake towards you the trunk of the palmtree, it will drop on you fresh ripe dates: 019.026 YUSUFALI: "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'" PICKTHAL: So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal. SHAKIR: So eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent Allah, so I shall not speak to any man today. 019.027 YUSUFALI: At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! PICKTHAL: Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing. SHAKIR: And she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said: O Marium! surely you have done a strange thing. 019.028 YUSUFALI: "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" PICKTHAL: O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot. SHAKIR: O sister of Haroun! your father was not a bad man, nor, was your mother an unchaste woman. 019.029 YUSUFALI: But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" PICKTHAL: Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy? SHAKIR: But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle? 019.030 YUSUFALI: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; PICKTHAL: He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet, SHAKIR: He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet; 019.031 YUSUFALI: "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; PICKTHAL: And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive, SHAKIR: And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live; 019.032 YUSUFALI: "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; PICKTHAL: And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest. SHAKIR: And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed; 019.033 YUSUFALI: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! PICKTHAL: Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! SHAKIR: And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life. 019.034 YUSUFALI: Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. PICKTHAL: Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. SHAKIR: Such is Isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute. 019.035 YUSUFALI: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. PICKTHAL: It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. SHAKIR: It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a ! son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is. 019.036 YUSUFALI: Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. PICKTHAL: And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path. SHAKIR: And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path. Also, got to http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

Yankovich Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 18	Post Options Post Reply Quote Yankovich Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:43pm
	So, basically you're saying that Muslims believe Mary had a miraculous child - right? But that this child wasn't the son of God. So, why was Jesus' birth miraculous? The Koran still says she was a virgin, right? Why weren't the mother's of other prophets virgins?
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DavidC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474	Post Options Post Reply Quote DavidC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 May 2006 at 4:14pm
	The explanation of "the Word" (logos) I believe Tertuillian gave was that Jesus came out of God but did not diminish God in any way. The analogy was as a flame can be multiplied by touching to a new candle, Jesus issued forth as a divine expression. It is only when one mentally limits God to the miniscule abilities of his creations does Jesus as God become impossible.
	Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

BMZ Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852	Post Options Post Reply Quote BMZ Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 May 2006 at 8:49pm
	Hello Yankovich, Greetings! You asked:"Okay, but what did my Muslim friend mean by this: Jesus is God's Word. He spoke and he was?" Please let me explain: Qur'aan does not say that Jesus is God's Word. It simply means that the Word meaning Command went out and Mary conceived Jesus. This can be explained easily with the help of Bible also: God said,"Let there be light." So, there was light. God said,"Let there be night." So, there was night. God said,"Let a child be conceived by Mary without any man touching her." Mary did. In Qur'aan's Arabic, the Word of God for anything to be done upon God's Command is "Let there be and Lo! It is done." Another example: I received a word from my driver that the car was being polished. It was a piece of information. That is what your Muslim friend meant when he said that. Hope this helped. Everything and anything that God brought into existence was a word with God, meaning God wanted to create or bring it out. There were no words living with God. Best Regards BMZ

Yankovich Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 18	Post Options Post Reply Quote Yankovich Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 May 2006 at 7:42am
	bmz: Well, thanks for that explanantion. But, then that means that Jesus did not exist before He was in Mary's womb - right? What about the Bible vs. that says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Do you think that this is correct (probably not if you are Muslim), or was added to the manuscript, or is a corruption. Or do you believe that the Apostle John really, really wrote that? And, if he did, was he wrong?
	GETTING TO THE TRUTH!