no compulsion - the latest......

Fredi must be proud his topic's hot. The reason I said this was, that, I feel some people post topics just for the sake of arguing although they know the truth. And such incitement really is a waste of time.

Mishmish wrote: Fred, if you are going to make claims like this, especially about the church goers being attacked, please post the proof.i read it somewhere ill try and dig it out, or something similar.  have a look at compass direct - its full of such stories, most of which are not in an islamic context, just in case you think its specifically anti-islam First: Infidel is a term created by the Christians during the Crusades to describe the Jews and the Muslims. Using this word to explain Muslim discrimination is rather ironic.not really mish, its the usual translation in english for kaffir  The Shariah Law that you quote did not exist at the time of the Prophet. i know The Law at the time of the Prophet was the Quran and the actions of the Prophet.well we know where to find the quran at least....  The four schools of thought you are fond of, i know why you may think im fond of them, but please believe me, i hate them especially the Hanafi because it seems to be the strictest, did not come into existence until the first 150 years after the Prophet's death. There is no Islamic government on the earth at this time. There are countries that have Muslim majorities. correct We know that there is no compulsion in the religion of Islam because the Quran tells us this and the Prophet NEVER forced anyone to accept Islam, under any circumstances.so once again you are restricting the idea of compulsion to the conversion issue.  i am talking about a broader definition (mind you, there is still the issue of the letter to the rulers of oman, which noone in here has been able to answer satisfactorily yet) We also know that the punishment for apostacy is not death, because the Prophet did not put all apostates to death. how many, to your knowledge, did he spare?The Prophet NEVER went against the Laws of Allah, well he had more than 4 wives, as weve already discussed.so if Allah had demanded death for apostates they would have had to be killed.well we have many eye-witness accounts of the prophets sayings and actions in the hadith, with respect to apostasy, and you have just said that the law was the quran and the actions of the prophet. if you dont accept these then what are you left with to run a country? At the time of the Prophet the Muslims entered into many treaties and contracts with non-Muslims. Many of these were broken by the non-Muslims, well im not surprised, if they were anything like the pact of umar thus making them liars and not to be trusted. As they refused to place their trust in Allah, well did he guarantee them salvation? -  he couldnt even do that for his own "apostle" and that was the most sincere of oaths, then the Muslims were warned not to accept their word over that of a Muslim. This is just common sense.no it just means that some people dont believe as you do If a group of people continually lie to you and break their word, why should you automatically believe them?  There were non-Muslims that the Prophet trusted and loved, and he never practised discrimination against any group. You use the jizya as an example of compulsion. It is not compulsion when they had the choice of fighting or paying. They had a choice.do we find this in the quran? No one was ever tortured or killed because they refused to accept Islam. They paid a tax. yes i know, to avoid being killed Now compare this with what the Christians were doing to get people to accept Christianity: four little things called the Inquisitions. Let's choose, being drawn and quartered or paying a tax in a humble fashion..... well im not going to leap to the defence of torturers, oppressors or discriminators with repect to the examples you give.  its not in the new testament, i know that, and consequently nothing needs to be fixed there

Edited by fredifreeloader

Fredi....We Muslims have refuted your wild claims but you still carry on attacking Islam. Can't you stop a while and evaluate all the answers of the Muslims? I believe that you know Islam is the truth of God but for the sake of your position in the church you carry on attacking Islam.

Here is an example why the Christian missionaries who believe that Islam is the truth of God do not embrace Islam:

Former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam: Martin John Mwaipopo  the Former Lutheran Archbishop

At the age of 25, Mwaipopo gave in to his father�s will. Unlike in Europe where children can do as they will after age 21 , in Africa , children are taught to honour their parent�s will above their own. 

"My , son , before I close my eyes (die), I would be glad if you could become a priest", that�s how father told son, and that�s how the son was moved, a move that saw him going to England in 1964, to do a diploma in Church Administration, and a year later to Germany to do a B.A degree. On returning , a year later, he was made acting Bishop. 

Later, he went back to do Masters. " All this time, I was just doing things, without questioning . It was when he began to do his doctorate , that he started questioning things. "I started wondering � there is Christianity, Islam, Judaism   Buddhism each different religions claiming to the true religion. What is the truth? I wanted the truth" , says Mwaipopo. So began his search , until he reduced it to the "major" four religions. He got himself a copy of the Qur�an, and guess what?

" When I opened the Qur�an , the first verses I came across were, � Say : He is Allah , The One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begeteteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him? (Surah Ikhlas)� ", he recalls. That was when the seeds of Islam, unknown to him, were first sown. It was then that he discovered that the Qur�an was the only scripture book that had been untampered with, by human beings since its revelation . "And in concluding my doctoral thesis I said so. I didn�t care whether they give me my doctorate or not - that was the truth, and I was looking for the truth."

While in that state of mind he called his "beloved" Professor Van Burger. 

"I closed the door, looked him in the eye and asked him �of all religions in the world, which is true�, I asked. 

�Islam�, he responded. 

�Why then are you not a Muslim?�, I asked again. 

He said to me "'One, I hate Arabs, and two, do you see all this luxuries that I have? Do you think that I would give it all up for Islam?�. When I thought about his answer, I thought about my own situation, too", recalls Mwaipopo. His mission, his cars - all these appeared in his imagination. No, he could not embrace Islam, and for one good year, he put it off his mind. But then dreams haunted him, the verses of the Quran kept on appearing, people clad in white kept on coming, "especially on Fridays", until he could take it no more. 

So, on December 22, Martin John Mwaipopo  the Lutheran Archbishop officially embraced Islam.

It was December 23, 1986, two days away from Christmas, when Arch Bishop Martin John Mwaipopo, announced to his congregation that he was leaving Christianity for Islam. The congregation was paralysed with shock on hearing the news, so much so, that his administrator got up from his seat, closed the door and windows, and declared to the church members that the Bishop�s mind had become unhinged, that is, he had gone mad. How could he not think and say so, when only a few minutes earlier, the man had taken out his music instruments and sang so movingly for the church members? Little did they know that inside the Bishop�s heart lay a decision that would blow their minds, and that the entertainment was only a farewell party. But the congregant�s reaction was equally shocking! They called the police to take the "mad" man away. He was kept in the cells until midnight when Sheikh Ahmed Sheik, the man who initiated him into Islam came to bail him out. That incident was only a mild beginning of shocks in store for him. Al Qalam reporter, Simphiwe Sesanti, spoke to the Tanzanian born former Lutheran Arch Bishop Martin John Mwaipopo, who on embracing Islam came to be known as Al Hajj Abu Bakr John Mwaipopo).

So, on December 22, Martin John Mwaipopo  the Lutheran Archbishop officially embraced Islam.

Martin John Mwaipopo the Lutheran Archbishop have embraced Islam voluntarily after he realise that Islam is the truth of Allah (God), the Prophet Muhammad is His last messenger and the Holy Quran is the final revelation of God.

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower
[Qur'an 2:256]

Edited by AbRah2006

abrah - even if your endless screeds were all true (and they are very far from that, as ive already shown), this still would not answer the questions ive been asking about islam on this thread.  the quotations ive put up were not my invention