no compulsion - the latest......

Hayfa said this:

"You can go up through the Middle Ages, to lack of birth control, etc. Heck, a woman raped was ordered to marry the rapist! These of course are man-made laws."

Well, I don't believe in birth control, except for Natural Family Planning (NFP) which works quite well and is 100% "natural".  I believe birth control is biblical because of Scripture in the words of Paul which tells us "it is better to spill your seed in the belly of a whore, than to spill it on the ground."  So anyway, my church does not believe in using artificial means of birth control.  NFP, okay, anything else, NO.  If a woman or girl is raped it is indeed a horrible crime and a tragedy for the woman.  However, if she becomes pregnant as a result of this crime, it is not right to take the life of the innocent baby.  The woman will have to carry and give birth to the child, after which she may offer it up for adoption if she is unable to care for it, but she has no right to murder it in the womb.  (These are my beliefs only, folks.)  If you believe otherwise, well...those are your beliefs and I am not trying to force you to believe as I do.  My own sister and brother-in-law adopted four little children and raised them to adulthood.  They were unable to have their own.....waiting lists for adoption are miles long. 

As I've said before, there should never be a situation where a woman remains in a marriage or relationship in which she is being abused.  God never meant for men to treat women in such a manner, and I'd personally hate to be in their shoes on Judgement Day.  Jesus loved women, had many female friends and followers....he would have ABHORRED the abuse of women.  Common sense alone tells us that.

The husband IS the SPIRITUAL head of the household, if he is a just and righteous man...as he is supposed to be.  If he is a lying, cheating weasel, he holds no value in teaching the wife and children whatsoever!  He is a disgrace in the eyes of God.

God's Peace. 

AnnieTwo wrote: <><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->Mishmish, <!--[endif]--> Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.  23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.  24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> Mishmish, you might benefit from Bible commentaries.  Here is one on Ephesians 5:22. http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/ephesians/mhc/ephesians5 .htm <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> You said:  How you interpret it is up to you, but I think the wording is quite clear. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <>I guess there is no reason to explain then, if you intend to interpret as you see fit.  But we could do the same with the Qur'an and with the Hadith and we could use the interpretations of Muslims.  For example see what follows. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> <>002.228 YUSUFALI: Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them.<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.  <!--[endif]--> 004.034 YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> The famous commentator Ibn Kathir commented on (Q. 4:34) saying: "Men are superior to women, and a man is better than a woman." Other commentators such as Razi, Baidawi, Zamakhshari, and Tabari are of the same opinion. Razi, commenting on Q. 4:11, said: "(The males share is that of two females). Man is more perfect than the woman in creation, and intelligence, and in the religious sphere, such as the suitability to be a judge, and a leader in worship. Also, the testimony of the man is twice that of the woman. So that whoever is given great responsibilities must be given correspondingly great privileges. As the woman is deficient in intelligence and of great lust, if she is given much money, much corruption will be the result. " He also added: "The male is mentioned first in Q. 4:11 because the male is better than the female." This superiority according to Razi is due to mens natural superiority in "knowlege and power, and because the man gives his wife the dowry and spends on her." A modern writer said about the previous verse: "God established the superiority of men over women by the above verse (the Qur'an 4:34) which prevents the equating of men and women. For here man is above the woman due to his intellectual superiority and his ability to administer and spend on the woman." <><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->"Allah's Apostle once said to a group of women : 'I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.' The women asked: 'O Allah's Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?' He said: 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency of your intelligence' ... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency in your religion.'" <!--[endif]--> Commenting on the Qur'anic verse Q. 30:21 which states "And of His signs is that He created for you, of yourselves, spouses, that you may repose in them" Razi said: "His saying 'created for you' is a proof that women were created like animals and plants and other useful things, just as the Most High has said 'He created for you what is on earth' and that necessitates the woman not to be created for worship and carrying the Divine commands. We say creating the women is one of the graces bestowed upon us and charging them with Divine commands to complete the graces bestowed upon us, not that they are charged as we men are charged. For women are not charged with many commands as we are charged, because the woman is weak, silly, in one sense she is like a child, and no commands are laid upon a child, but for the grace of Allah upon us to be complete, women had to be charged so that they may fear the torment of punishment and so follow her husband, and keep away from what is forbidden, otherwise corruption would be rampant." "Righteous women are therefore obedient, ... And those you fear may be rebellious (nushuz) admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them." Some translators add the word lightly after 'beat them'[56] in Q. 4:34. Others like Mohammed Pickthall and Rodwell translate the word 'edrebouhon - beat them' as 'scourge them'. The occasion in which Q. 4:34 was revealed sheds more light on the meaning of that verse. Most commentators mention that "the above verse was revealed in connection with a woman who complained to Mohammad that her husband slapped her on the face (which was still marked by the slap). At first the Prophet said to her: 'Get even with him', but then added: 'Wait until I think about it.' Later on the above verse was revealed, after which the Prophet said: 'We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best.'" The beating in the previous incident can hardly be described as light, unless that is what is meant by light beating. This beating comes as the last corrective measure when sexual desertion fails. Light beating after sexual desertion is an anticlimax that serves no purpose. But firm beating is the logical progression from admonishing, then sexually deserting, finally beating her. This beating must be stronger than sexual desertion to have any effect. So, dear Mishmish, you could explain these sayings and correct any misinterpretations, but then we could come back and say:  How you interpret it is up to you, but I think the wording is quite clear. Best wishes, Annie

Annie:

The pastoral letters were clear instructions from Paul on how to run the Christian church, and the relationship between Christ, Christians, the church, and each other. It is no mistake that all of the pastoral letters are almost identical. Paul wasn't addressing a specific group or a few people, he was addressing Christians as a whole.

I do not need men to interpret the Word of God in the Quran, it speaks for itself.

As for the verses you quoted from the Quran, you forgot to highlight the preceeding sentence:

YUSUFALI: Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them.

This states quite clearly that men and women have equal rights except for mens responsiblity of the Quiwama, or financial maintenance:

4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.

I do not need men to tell me that I am not equal to men. The Quran has made it very clear that I am:

"Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds" (Qur'an 74:38).

...So their Lord accepted their prayers, (saying): I will not suffer to be lost the work of any of you whether male or female. You proceed one from another ...(Qur'an 3: 195).

Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him will We give a new life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the their actions. (Qur'an 16:97, see also 4:124).

The Creator of heavens and earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves ...Qur'an 42:11

And Allah has given you mates of your own nature, and has given you from your mates, children and grandchildren, and has made provision of good things for you. Is it then in vanity that they believe and in the grace of God that they disbelieve? Qur'an 16:72

Man cannot take from me something that God has given me. As far as beating women, here is what the Prophet said about that:

The best of you is the best to his family and I am the best among you to my family.

The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives. (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 7396)

Behold, many women came to Muhammad's wives complaining against their husbands (because they beat them) - - those (husbands) are not the best of you.

Umm Salamah (the Prophet�s wife) recounts an incident which took place when the Prophet was at home with her. He called out to the maid servant, and when she failed to appear, he showed signs of displeasure. Then Umm Salamah peeped out through the curtain and saw the maid playing. The Prophet, who was holding a miswak (a twig for cleaning the teeth) in his hand, said to the maidservant, �If I had had no fear of retribution on Judgement day, I would have hit you with this twig.� AL-ADAB AL-MUFRAD BY IMAM AL-BUKHARI.

So, the Prophet NEVER hit anyone in anger or not. He feared God too much. If a man chooses to hit his wife, he will be asked about this on the Day of Judgement.

As far as women's status in Islam:

From the Quran:

4:1 O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.

In the latter verse, not only are we told to revere the womb that bore us, but also that we: men and women, have mutual rights.

And Hadith:

A man thus addressed the Prophet: �O Messenger of God, who rightfully deserves the best treatment from me�? �Your mother�, the Prophet said. �Then who�? the man asked again. �Your mother�, replied the Prophet. �Then who�? asked the man once again. �Your mother�, said the Prophet. The man asked once more, �Then who?� �Your father,� said the noble Prophet. HADITH OF AL-BUKHARI AND MUSLIM ON THE AUTHORITY OF ABU HURAYRAH.

"God has forbidden for you to be undutiful to your mothers." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

The Quran makes it clear that men and women are equal in rights, spirituality, and before the eyes of God. Only in Quiwama are they different.

So, basically you used men's words to show that women have less rights than they are given in the Quran, but more than they are given in the Scriptures.

Angela wrote: Mishmish, Can I ask a question, why when a spouse dies and there are no children, a woman only gets 1/4 of her husbands estate, yet a man gets 1/2 of his wife's in the same situation?

If a woman's husband dies, the woman's male relatives are supposed to then become financially responsible for her. If the wife dies, the husband is still financially responsible for any of his female relatives, even if he has no children.

It has nothing to do with a woman's worth, but rather the man's financial responsiblity. Any money the woman has is hers alone, but the money a man has basically belongs to his family.

At least this is the way it's supposed to be. I don't think it is adhered to very much anymore, except by those who truly fear God.

"So, what if the woman has no male relatives?  Or she's a revert and her family doesn't follow Islamic traditions?  If my husband were to die, I would be left with a great deal of debt and the loss of his income.  Only getting a quarter of his little savings would hurt....badly.  Why should his family get that money or cars or such?  They are things we have together even if they are in his name."

Islamically, ideally you should not deal in interest, so bank loans, mortgages, and credit card debt are not supposed to exist. We are also supposed to repay any personal debts immediately.

If his family are not Muslims I don't know if the division laws would even count. You would have to ask a Sheikh about that.

The Quran states:

2:240 Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence; but if they leave (The residence), there is no blame on you for what they do with themselves, provided it is reasonable. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

But if the husband was not able to do this, then the Ummah are supposed to step up:

76:8 And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,-

2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

2:215 They ask thee what they should spend (In charity). Say: Whatever ye spend that is good, is for parents and kindred and orphans and those in want and for wayfarers. And whatever ye do that is good, -(Allah) knoweth it well.

Or the woman could remarry, which is a main reason why men are allowed more than one wife.

4:3 If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.