Hmmmmm!

I think you are overconfident for nothing, have you ever toughed about why majority of muslims dont share your beliefs? What you have putt forward is very easy to explane. Firstly shia  have always the tendency hiding the proper context when they make their clime. If they present the narations in its proper context it would have destroyed their arguments. So you have to take the linguisticall  Historical,  and textual context in consideration or ells any one can make any thing out of nothing.

Lets as now go through your evidence

Ali Zaki wrote: You have asked my all time favorite question! Thank you! The First Time " When the verse: "And warn thy nearest relations (26:214), was revealed, the Prophet ordered 'Ali to prepare food and invite the sons of 'Abdu'l-Muttalib so that he could convey to them the words of Allah. After the feast, the Prophet intended to talk to them, but Abu Lahab interfered by saying:"Verily, your comrade has entranced you". Upon hearing this statement all of them dispersed. The next day, the Messenger of Allah again called them for a feast. After they had finished with their food, the Prophet addressed them: "O sons of 'Abdul'l-Muttalib, I have brought for you the good of this world and the next, and I have been appointed by the Lord to call you unto Him. Therefore, who amongst you will administer this cause for me and be my brother, my successor and my caliph?" No one responded to the Prophet' s call except 'Ali who was the youngest of the congregation. The Prophet then patted 'Ali's neck and said: "O my people! This 'A1i is my brother, my successor and my caliph amongst you. Listen to him and obey him.'' [16] "

The Prophet(saw) said "..my successor and my caliph(leader) amongst you". I ask you to whom did he say this too? who was he addressing? it wasn't amongst the muslims if you follow the context, the prophet was inviting sons of Abd Al Muttalib to islam? It was only amongs them he said this.

The Second Time " Abu Dharr al-Ghifari says that one day he was praying with the Prophet when a beggar came to the Prophet's mosque. No one responded to his pleas. The beggar raised his hands towards heavens and said, "Allah! be a witness that I came to Thy Prophet's mosque and no one gave me anything". 'Ali (as) was bowing in ruku' at that time. He pointed his little finger, on which was a ring, towards the beggar who came forward and took away the ring. This incident occurred in the Prophet's presence who raised his face towards heaven and prayed: "O Lord! my brother Musa had begged of Thee to open his breast and to make his work easy for him, to loose the knot of his tongue so that people might understand him, and to appoint from among his relations his brother, as his vizier, and to strengthen his back with Harun and to make Harun his partner in his work. O Allah! Thou said to Musa, 'We will strengthen thy arm with thy brother. No one will now have an access to either of you!' O Allah! I am Muhammad and Thou hast given me distinction. Open my breast for me, make my work easy for me, and from my family appoint my brother 'Ali as my vizier. Strengthen my back with him". The Prophet had not yet finished his prayers when Jibril brought the above quoted verse. [17] "

This is what i call building a case out of straws. Where douse the prophet say Ali(ra) is my successor? is this what you call clear evidence?

The Third Time snippet unauthentic version

Ghadeer declaration is the most popular shia arguments to prove Ali(ra) nomination as caliph. But what they fail mention is the background behind this statement.  It was when an expedition and led by Ali(ra) return from its mission that some people from the expedition started to complain to the Prophet(saw) that Ali(ra) has done such and such. It was after that the prophet(saw) said this words "man kuntu mawlah fa Ali mawlah". It was not in any way a declaration that Ali(ra) was hes successor. If the prophet(saw) wanted to declare Ali as caliph he could have done that during the Hajj on the day of Arafa and not after.

ALSO: The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the      position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no      Prophet after me" Sunni References: (1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700 (2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71 (3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12 (4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174 (5) al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16 (6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

Again the shia hide the reason why the prophet said this hadith. The prophet left Ali(ra) to command People while all other men followed, Ali(ra) did not wanted to be left behind. It was after that the prophet used this analogy to Haroon(as) who was left in in charge over his people while Musa(as) went to mount Sani. Even if we putt aside the context  answer me this was Haroon(as) successor to Moses(as)?

If, by " it all started with Uthman ibn affans(ra) death and hes killers." you are implying that Imam Ali(A.S.) had something to do with the assasination of Uthman (as Muawiya ibn abu Suffian did)  then please present your evidence for this.

Any one who climes Ali(ra) had something to do with Uthamns(ra) dead is not different from shias.

In his famous collection of speechs, "Nagul Balagha", Imam Ali says in sermon 22 about those who accussed him of participating or sactioning the killing of Uthman

sermonis in nahjul-balaghah are pure fabrications it was written many generations after Ali(ra) and the author doesn't give any chain of transmission, which makes the books worthless as historical evidence 

CONTINUED

HERE IS MORE EVIDENCE

Whoever considers me his master, then Ali is his master. (He said it) at the end of the Farewell Pilgrimage, when it was confirmed that Ali would succeed, and many people congratulated him on that, including Abu Bakr and Umar who were among the well-wishers, and who were quoted as having said to the Imam, Well done, Ibn Abi Talib, overnight you have become a master of all the believers." [64]

[64]

Musnad, Ahmed Hanbal, vol 4 p 281
Siyar al Amin, al Ghazali, p 12
Tadhkirat al Awas, Ibn al Jawzi, p 29
Al Riyadh al Nazarah, al Tabari, vol 2 p 169
al Bidayah wan Nihayah, vol 5 p 212
Tarikh, Ibn Asakir, vol 2 p 50
Tafsir, al Razi, vol 3 p 63
al Hawi lil Fatawi, al Suyuti, vol 1 p 112

In regards to your statement" was Haroon(as) successor to Moses(as)?" In the case of most (if not all) prophets, they nominated a succesor. Haroon inherited the authority (Imamate) over the jews whenever Musa was not present, for example, when Moses was receiving the ten commandments on Mount Sinai. Although the question of whether or not Haroon was a rasool, nabi, imam, all of these or some of them is up for debate. What is clear is that he certainly was designated as an Imam over the community in Musa's absence.

We must ask ourselves why the Prophet Muhammad says that "You are like Haroon was to Musa". If it is in regards to some limited, or restricted form of authority then why did he repeat this same hadith at several times and different occassions? The key for a sincere beliver to understand the reason for this repitition is the decleration of Ghaddir, which is why he repeats it again on that day.

In addition, the prophet (a.s.) died approx 70 days after this declaration. During those seventy days, after this statement was made, did he give any additional hadith, or receive any additional revelation which would circumscribe the authority give to Imam Ali (a.s.) at Ghadir?

If this incident was in reference to some past incident, please provide the sources for this so that the credibility may be ascertained.

REGARDING YOUR COMMENT

" The Prophet(saw) said "..my successor and my caliph(leader) amongst you". I ask you to whom did he say this too? who was he addressing? it wasn't amongst the muslims if you follow the context, the prophet was inviting sons of Abd Al Muttalib to islam? It was only amongs them he said this."

Is not a successor the person that will inherit authority, not one who current holds that authority? What does Imam Ali (a.s.) inherit? If it is the authority ( " Listen to him and obey him" ) of only these people after the death of the prophet, then what about people like Abu Talib (and others) who died before the prophet? Also, if it means some type of current authority, then how can this be while the prophet is still alive?

This is an issue of common sense. If someone is designated as the Caliphate after me, it mean the Caliphate of the Muslims. After all, didn't Omar and Abu Bakr refer to themselves as Caliphate Rasool. If the prophet already said that Ali was the Caliphate Rasool (this is the precise meaning of "my Caliphate"), then how can they claim that title for themselves.

Salam

Yes Jello, I agree. Please answer these questions so that I may understand your viewpoint better.

1.) What is the explanation of the Sunni scholars as to why, on several occasions the prophet (a.s.) refered to Imam Ali in this way (see page 5)? Could you please quote your sources in your answer.

2.) During the decleration of Ghaddir, why does the prophet (a.s.) say" man kuntu mawlah fa Ali mawlah" before saying that Imam (a.s.) is like Haroon was to Musa..."

3.) Why did the companions, including Omar and Abu Bakr congratulate Imam Ali (a.s.) on being declared, "Amir al Mumminin" or, Master of all the Believers (see page above for sources) if their understanding was something other than the obvious one (i.e., that Imam Ali (a.s. ) had inherited the authority of the prophet (a.s.) as Haroon inherited the authority of Musa)

4.) If this authority given was only valid during the life of the Prophet (a.s.), then does that mean the Imam Ali (a.s.) had authority over the Prophet (a.s.) while he was still alive and among the community? I ask this question because, unlike Musa, the prophet (a.s.) did not leave his community after giving this authority to Imam Ali (a.s.).

Salaam

Salam Jello,

I appreciate your feedback, however, you have not answered any of my questions.

If you saw that 'mawla' means something else, then what? If you believe that the prophet was masoom (sinless), then he could not declare something that would only be a source of confusion and discord (namely that both the prophet (a.s.) and Imam Ali (a.s.) were concurrent Imams).

As you know, there have been hundreds of Shia books written about this incident, however, I've asked the questions because I'm interested in a different point of view on this incident (since you don't deny it happened). By the way, if 'mawla' does not mean 'imam', how about 'Amir al Mumminin' (which is what Omar and Abu Bakr called Imam Ali (a.s.) after the decleration).

I am happy to discuss things on any level you would like, however, I would like to stick to the topic and not get too far off track as a coutesy to those who are viewing these threads based on the subject title.

If you would like to start a new thread and call it something else, then myself and others can decide if we would like to participate.

Salam.