Islam and Hinduism

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Dear Ahmad,

We shall start afresh about our discussion again after this post and we shall try to bridge the differences.  

Just go through this post.  In my previous post I have pointed out
why I do not like to follow Islam, please do reply(if you want) for
that one too.

 AhmadJoyia wrote:

Oh, you mean the exploitation of Brahmins for the
last 3000 yrs was not in caste system only. Then in what else did they
exploit?

They haven't 'exploited' anything else.

 and if I am not wrong the very word "exploitation" was used by you and not by me.

As you can see, I used it when explaining to to our fellow members.

Even if I have started using the word 'exploitation', I have also
explained about its invalidity, didn't I?  And as you can see, I
have clearly explained in this very post everything about the history
and their distortions.

And when I started the topic about caste system with you, I thought that you have already read the other posts.

Thats why I didn't answer two of your posts. 

 Its you who hinted on it and then you are blaming me to use it.

I blamed you because you were refering to the Brahmins to be the distorters of our scriptures.

I am sorry if I hurt you.

 However, if its your kind of Itiahas, then I must apologize for being rude.

The sentence I quoted here is a joke which we crack on ourselves.  It is not Itihasa.  Itihasa means history.

 But then its you who don't let us understand what is the
difference between human history and the mythical history (Itihas) that
you quoted earlier for an example about a child and the angel of
death.

First, I don't understand what you mean by mythical history.

If you were refering to stories regarding mythology, then they are definitely not history.

Itihasa means "what happened till now".  And about the boy and the
angel of death, the boy separates his mind and body(you don't have any
such thing in your scriptures I suppose) which can be done by you and
me as well.

 As you say my brother, I don't want to argue other than what you
tell us to look at. Now here you are giving us another dimension of the
caste system and that is "untouchables" other than merely keeping the
scriptures in their possession and not letting others to handle it. Now
if I start probing into this "untouchability", you may again start
accusing me of making slander remarks. But my purpose is to understand
and understand from a logical point of view rather than mythological
point of view.

Thats not a big problem.  I
understand that you think logically.  But the point here is that
"untouchability" has no logic.

Few discuss about it here in India.

And I don't understand why you are thinking of mythology here.

 So what is this "untouchability"? How is it a necessary condition under an "exploited" caste system.

You have the answer, "...merely keeping the scriptures in their possession and not letting others to handle it."

 I mean I do see why and then how the Brahmins (you say few)
kept the whole of the other castes away from their own scriptures but
what is the point in declaring "untouchability" on the lower castes?
Moreover, how they did it to prevail all over the masses and not on
just few isloated places.

I have already explained to you about it clearly.  They did not declare any such thing.  They used to feel like that.

And I have already told that such things are localised in one of my
previous posts.  And as I pointed out this is used as a political
propaganda and so everyone feels that it is widespread(I have even
explained this one).

 They must had some sort of scriptural support otherwise I just
don't know what else could be the means to prevail wholesomely.

Its your thinking that scriptural support is a must(because you follow everything given in Quran).

 Yes, we (atleast I) do think that Islam is the true way to recognise Allah.

So be it.  But remember, your clothes does not fit others.  Religion is just like clothes, its a habit, its a belief.

 However, Quran also tells that since their scriptures have not been left pure,

How do you know?

 Simply because Quran was revealed to Prophet Mohammad who was in the land of arab.

As I have already told you, you are very good at reasoning.  I find it very pleasant when questioning or answering you.

But my question is, Allah would have reavealed about Buddha, he himself
being such a great soul.  Buddhists are the most pleasant of all
people in the world.  And Buddha was not the one to be discarded.

 How do you say this?

Because it is the truth.  If it weren't the truth, doesn't my
parents(they in turn warned by their own parents) warn  me about
the Brahmins?  But we were said that the Muslims came to Bharat
with Koran in one hand and the sword in the other. 

And you can yourself interact with a brahmin, he is so pleasant to talk
with.  And its not the case with the Indian Muslims(excepting a
few).

 The history of caste system (untouchability) as per your own
statement is as old as around 3000 years. Why would you make such a
sweeping statement despite you very well know the ups and downs of the
history and especially once you also know that it wasn't an isolated
phenomena but a very well spread all over the area.

Buddy, I don't understand why are you so skeptical about these
brahmins?   If they were not willing to touch them, why would
they kill them?

 Now if the situation is changing, though it is encouraging, but you can't change the past history. 

No need to sympathise.  Who is changing the past history?

 Yes, you can appeal to them only if you have any evidence against their practices through your scriptures.

So you see there was nothing written in the scriptures about such a thing.

If we have to appeal, we have to appeal to all the Muslims here who have raged our temples and killed our ancestors.

 However, if they had muddled with these scriptures,

If at all they muddled with the scriptures then they would have wrote
them in favour of them.  Nothing of that sort happened.

 as you also seem to suggest that caste system is in the scriptures,

I have already explained you about the Varna system given in the scriptures.

 then you would really have a hard time convining them merely on the basis of these scriptures.

Why would we try to convince them when we ourselves know the truth.

 What's happening now in India, I don't think is because of this
realization of their past errors but because of the other social
forces.

LOL... How do you know?  You haven't been to India and you definitely don't know the history of India.  

You are quick at making assumptions buddy.  Though I like your
reasoning, your premises and assumptions have to be reviewed.

 It is in this regard that I always request to look beyond these
ideas that have been developed in the later generations to subjugate
the others.

Now, that is past.  Now we have more nobler things to do.

We know the truth about brahmins and we need not prove it to anyone.

 Your concept of Brahman is beautiful, and I think that is
sufficient for us to recognise that monotheism used to be the prime
doctrine of hinduism.

What do you mean by "...used to be..."? It still is.

 However, I have yet to understand if that doctrine still
prevalant or is considered far beyond human understanding and other
gods have been called in to undestand Brahman.

Just like Gabriel assisted Mohammad, we seek it from our angels.

 Brother, though theoretical considerations (by non hindus) is
very different than physically abusing them (by higher castes of
hinduism),

Who said that we were physically abused by our higher castes?

Please do not make meaningless assumptions.

 yet I think everyone (who it may be) should apologize for their wrong doings to other human beings.

Yes, they should apologize.  I think you don't know.  Here in
India, "untouchability" is considered to be a crime and whoever
practices it are prosecuted.

 All human beings are equal whatever their caste, creed or colour maybe.

Yes thats true.

 Idea? not a good idea? Who proposed it was an idea? It was right in your own scripture.

Again, who said "untouchability" was "right in our own scripture"?

 You confessed that, however, with modification that it was exploited.

I said about Varna system.

 I, on the other hand, even challanged that very concept of caste
system based on your logic of admissiablity in hindu scriptures.

What do you mean?

 But alas, I didn't get any response on it.

I have given you the reason earlier in the post.

 Nevertheless, I still feel, any idea (I repeat any idea) of a
caste system in your scriptures is a valid proof of adulteration in
your scriptures especially given that the same very scriptures carry
such a beatuiful philosophy about Brahman.

I have explained about the Varna system clearly in various posts.

If you read your fellow's(muslim's) version of our caste system, then
you will definitely have a biased opinion.  Even in this very
topic a member has written a disgusting version of it.

No hindu talks about Varna system now because it is misunderstood.

 Brother, is it a point to laugh at or a point to think about? I
may forego discussing exploitation of caste system, but how would you
justify the very existance of any caste system that you also agree that
it does exist but not valid for now a days.

Buddy, Varna system was devised for a purpose which I don't want to
explain again.  But it has been discarded because it was not
correctly used and for other reasons which you may not understand.

 Well, here I thought you would rather provide some detailed
explanation or philosophy about Brahma. Alas, I have yet to wait (maybe
forever) for your response.

Yes, you have to wait, but not forever.  I don't know if I myself would explain it here or not.

The reasons being, this is an Islamic forum; the forum is full of hindu
haters; and these are not the topics which can be explained easily.

 Then you said that Brahmin were the people who were asked to be
the custodian of the holy scriptures. Its only they who know what is
written in them and the proof you presented that 90% of population is
ignorant of their true beliefs.

Aha........... Come on... "Its only they who know what is written in
them..."  They were made custodians, but that does not mean that
others cannot read them.  Not only brahmins, everyone who have
interest in them can pursue.

"...the proof you presented that 90% of population is ..." This does
not definitely mean that the 10% knowledgeable population is brahmin,
does it?

 Therefore whatever Brahmin tells them they have to believe it, whatever it may be.

Its you assumption.

 Hence they all believed to Brahma because of Brahmin and not to the Brahman as they should have.

Please do not make assumptions.

Our religion is not the one which could be understood using a few
essays.  If we want Salvation, thats a different matter.  If
we want to know about our religion, or want material gains then its
totally different matter.  Now I think you understood the
difference between Brahman and Brahma.

 However, I think I have provided the meanings to what you
presented uptill now (you say meaningless assumptions) and provided one
possible conclusions (you say meaningless conclusions).

I said meaningless because they are not compatible with what we think.

 Can you provide other meanings and other possible conclusions so
that I can understand better other than you keep repeating the same
arguments again and again?

Hope I have given now.

 Again, it were you who provided the word "exploitation" so why
are you blaming me to logically connect them all togather in one fabric
of common understanding. However, I am still open to listen and
understand anyother way this exploitation could be looked at.

First, we haven't had a systematic approach to the religion.  I
had been answering(or negating) you what you think about our
religion.  

And I am totally convinced that you have a completely biased opinion about our religion.

And the main thing, I think you want to know about our religion, but
why do you keep asking about other things?(I am not offending you, I
feel offended when you ask such things when I have already told that
they don't exist)

 Even, despite the fact that 90% of vedas have been lost? and
despite your own acknowledgement that Brahmin exploited the caste
system and didn't let others (you say from lower castes) come near to
it, and it were their generation to generation transmission of this
knowledge to their own children? Yet you think such a system for the
preservation of scriptures is error free?

What have been lost, have lost.  What ever we have,we have them
intact.  I have told you about Bagavad Gita and why it is
considered to be our holy book.  

And I have told you about the brahmins thing.

 Where is your logical mind? Where is your analytical reasoning
in this case? You simply base it because of your faith. Is that enough?
I don't think so.

As I have said, Bagavad Gita is sufficient.

 I do see the Brahmin's exploitation parallel with the
misinterpretation of Quran, however, this is not the issue under
discussion. How could you compare two different things? You got to
compare oranges with oranges and apples with apples. There is no
question about the authenticity of Quran in any of its
misinterpretations by different people.

LOL...... I had been saying that they haven't tampered with our scriptures.

 Not even in Shias, sunnis, or any other sect. Everyone believes
it is the true word of God revealed to Prophet Mohammad.

Same here.  All hindus irrespective of their language etc, accept Bagavad Gita etc.

 However, the differences come in various interpretations depending upon an individual's motive.

Thats it.  You are on the point.

 Whereas your own website states in its own statement that
most of the Vedas literature have been lost. Then they also provide an
estimate of this loss to be around 90%.

I have said it, what we have lost, we have lost.  No point in brooding over them.

 Kindly do note that I am not being sarcastic about your
scripture, but only to state the facts from your own source.

But we have the Bagavad Gita which is intact.

 Had this fact known from my source or any other non-hindu
source, your possible argument of baisness in this fact would have been
difficult to ignore.

Its our own estimate.  But as I have said we have Bagavad Gita with is the purport of the Upanishads.

 But its not; the evidence is from no one else but your own source. How can you challange it?

What is the need to challenge it, I myself told that we lost
those.  But I also said that we have Bagavad gita which is the
purport of Upanishads.

 I think you have already been responded on it by no one else but a woman in Islam.

Yes, I know her.  But she does not live in an Islamic Republic.  She is an Indian living in Canada.

 I have already provided the relpy that it is different
interpretations and different sources. Yet everyone acknowledges it to
be true word of Allah sent to us through Prophet Mohammad.

The same thing I was saying about our religion.

 Brother, what are you talking about? I think we need more
discussion about Islam than Hinduism as I see you grossly wrong in your
impression about Islam. I don't blame you because of general condition
of Muslims at this time, but fact remain, for academic purposes, we
don't quote examples from the people but from their scriptures and
doctrines.

Yes buddy you are right.  I have as much bad impression on Islam
as you have on Hinduism.  We shall discuss about this.

 Yet I never heard that people of Bangladesh are not considered
muslims. If your allusion is towards seperation of east and west
Pakistan, then it must be noted that the conflict between the two was
highly political. People of the east Pakistan felt being deprived of
their rights (personally I also don't oppose to their claim) so they
struggled for their independance.

Yes, thats what I was saying about the similar situation in India.  Everything is politically motivated.

 I also don't want to go into the role that India played to add
fuel to the fire, but fact remains that the whole issue was totally
political and nothing at all to do with Islam.

I know what we have done.  And I say the same regarding the
situation.  Everyone talks about the ills in hinduism for
political gains.

 Did I say that? And why should I say such things to you to whom I now know is not very knowledgable about Islam.

I am not talking about liberal Muslims like you my dear.

 All you know about Islam is through your observations how
muslim behave. Yes it is this behaviour that I blame all muslims
(including myself) that we don't live up to the expectations of Quran.
But that doesn't mean that Quran is not authentic, its a totally a
different issue. Hope one may not try to confuse between the
two.

But I don't understand about your misunderstanding about hinduism.

Anyway, we shall have a good understanding about each other soon.

Peace and Love.

Edited by bharatiya