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Ali Zaki View Drop Down
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Points: 217 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2005 at 8:02am

Salam alakum Jello.

Again, I am impressed with the detail and care of your responses. InshahAllah we will learn from eachother.

I want to address some of your points and, InshahAllah, I will address others later.

I WANT TO ADDRESS THIS ONE FIRST, AS IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE.

" A good number of Shias I have discussed with consider the post of Imaamah to be higher than the post of Prophethood in general. Also, many consider that the Imaams are higher than Prophets, which would obviously entail that an Imaam is a Prophet plus something additional to that. This is also obvious from the fact that the Imaams in some Shia Ahadeeth explain that they are higher than Musa, or Ibrahim, or Jesus, and that they possess all the qualities, miracles, and knowledge of the previous Prophets. So I believe that this puts a question mark over the "No more Prophethood" claim by the Imami Shias."

This is a comment I have heard often from the Sunni brothers I have spoken with. Personally, I have never read any book by a mainstream Shia author or heard any knowledgeable Shia scholar say that any of the Imams are HIGHER than a prophet. Of course, among the common people, I have heard strange and exagerated statements regarding the Imams which are untrue. These statements are made due to a lack of knowledge, however, there is a basis for it. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". This applies in physics as well as soceity in general.

In my opinion, 1400 years of oppression of the followers of the school of Ahl al'Bayt has casued them to (sometimes) exaggerate the positive qualities of the Imams to attempt to conterbalance the lies and negative qualities falsely attributed to them by their enemies. This situation is unhealthy and unnatural, however, it has a cause and that cause must be considered in it's historical context to explain this phenomenon.

This, or course, does not justify any false claims (whether positive or negative) made about the Imams. As Imam Ali (a.s.) said, ""There are two groups who will suffer humiliating death, and I am not responsible for them (since I disdain their deeds): those who exceed the lawful limits of love for me and are Ghullat (extremists), and those who, for no reason whatsoever, are hostile to me. I hate those who extol my position beyond its proper limit, just as Christ hated the Christians."

The Imams are imams, not prophets. Their knowledge and authority come AFTER the Holy, Blessed Prophet Muhammad (a.s.). They do not bring a NEW message as a prophet does. Their duty is only to lead the Umma, to clarify the principles of the religion of Islam and to serve as the proof of Allah (s.w.a.) on the earth (Hujja).

REGARDING TIJANI AND 'AL-MARJAAT' (The Right Path)

This is what I don't understand. If you have read these books, and would like to criticize their CONTENT, then I would love to hear your constructive criticism. However, it seems that you just want to make ad homoneim arguments against the authors or details regarding the circumstances of mail delivery system in the early 1900's. I don't see how this is relevent to the overall point.

I have personally met Sayed Tijani, and questioned him regarding his early experiences as a Sunni scholar. In addition, I have many friends who have also met and questioned him and I have not heard one person (Shia, Sunni or Sufi) who question the autobiographical portions of his book. He also expalins in his book why some of the 'basic' things did not come up in his education as a scholar. I encourage you to read his book, as he addresses many of your concerns.

HIS BEST (in my opinion) WORKS

'AND THEN I WAS GUIDED'

http://al-islam.org/guided/

' The Shi'ah are (the real) Ahl al-Sunnah'

http://al-islam.org/real/

Regarding Al-Marajaat, Sayed Sharif al-Deen al-Musawayi was a well known scholar at his time (and many other books have been written about him), as was the Sunni Alim Maulana Shaykh al­Islam. I will provide the link again, in case you change your mind about your analysis.

http://al-islam.org/murajaat/index.htm

REGARDING THE VERSES OF QURAN CITED CONDEMING PEOPLE WHO WERE WITH THE PROPHET.

I will be happy to locate Tafsir (inshahAllah) for these verses, as it is not permissible for someone who is not qualified to interpret the Quran. My intention in quoting the verses was not to interpret their specific meaning. My intention was to show that (which is obvious from the verses) that there were people ("they accepted Islam..., "those who listen to you..., "a group from the believers..." "The desert Arabs (who) say: 'We believe'...") that there were people around the Prophet Muhammad (a.s.) who professes Islam that were rebuked and condemned by Allah (s.w.a.). This much is obvious, and can be accepted at face value.

If you say that "All the Companions were good" and your define compainons as all of the Muslims who were with the Prophet (a.s.) during his lifetime, then the Quran clearly contradicts this. If you define the Companions more narrowly, then a more careful examination would be neccessary.

I will consider your points in more detail later, inshahAllah

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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jello View Drop Down
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Points: 37 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2005 at 12:22pm

Salam

Personally, I have never read any book by a mainstream Shia author or heard any knowledgeable Shia scholar say that any of the Imams are HIGHER than a prophet.

In this respect, we would need to gather the opinions of all leading Shia Aalims throughout the centuries and see for example: Did they consider Imaam Ali to be higher than Musa, or Imaam Husayn to be higher in status than Ibrahim, etc., and how many of them subscibed to which viewpoint. I will provide one small example, but Insha Allah we can discuss this at a later time further...

I obtained a copy of Khomeini's "Islamic Government" from http://www.wandea.org.pl/khomeini-pdf/hukumat-i-islami.pdf. I think it is good enough for the purposes of this discussion, and if there are objections with regards to my source, we will deal with them later.

We have Khomeini's declaration: To prove that government and authority belong to the Imam is not to imply that the Imam has no spiritual status. The Imam does indeed possess certain spiritual dimensions that are unconnected with his function as ruler. The spiritual status of the Imam is the universal divine viceregency that is
sometimes mentioned by the Imams (peace be upon them). It is a viceregency pertaining to the whole of creation, by virtue of which all the atoms in the universe humble themselves before the holder of authority. It is one of the essential beliefs of our Shi'i school that no one can attain the spiritual status of the Imams, not even the cherubim or the prophets. In fact, according to the traditions that have been handed down to us, the Most Noble Messenger and the Imams existed before the creation of the world in the form of lights situated beneath the divine throne; they were superior to other men even in the sperm from which they grew and in their physical composition.  Their exalted station is limited only by the divine will, as indicated by the saying of Jibra'il recorded in the traditions on the mi'raj: �Were I to draw closer by as much as the breadth of a finger, surely I would burn.� The Prophet himself said: �We have states with God that are beyond the reach of the cherubim and the prophets.� It is a part of our belief that the Imams too enjoy similar states, before the question of government even arises. For example, Fatima also possessed these states, even though she was not a ruler, a judge, or a governor.

Of course, the above really does not need much explanation, as Khomeini quoted a tradition from the Prophet to support his view, and Khomeini declares that the Maasomen were superior "to other men" without exception from "before the creation of the world in the form of lights". Notice that the Shia belief does not hold that Prophets Musa, or Jesus, or Ibrahim, or other Prophets were created from light, etc., but this is a distinction only applicable to the 14 Ma'asoomen.

To be fair, I will include what the translator Hamid Algar comments: " The statement here that no one can attain the spiritual status of the Imams, not even the cherubim or the prophets thus carries the strict sense that the Imams are superior to those prophets whose mission lacked the dimension of governmental leadership". Still, this would  clearly mean that according to Algar (not Khomeini, for he did not mention this), Imaams are higher in status than the vast majority of Prophets, for very few Prophets actually had governemnetal leadership. (Actually, this would contradict some other statements I have heard from some Shias that all Prophets are Imaams, but I suppose this will have to wait).

If Ali Zaki has something to say about this, Insha Allah I would like to hear about it.

However, it seems that you just want to make ad homoneim arguments against the authors or details regarding the circumstances of mail delivery system in the early 1900's. I don't see how this is relevent to the overall point.

Now about Tijani specifically, I have had the chance to read "Then I Was Guided". His arguments are mostly in line with normal Shia debators, and save for his personal anectodes, there is really nothing shockingly new in this book, as far as I am concerned. Of course, in order to answer each and every single issue, it would be way outside of the scope of this thread.

About Al-Murajaat, the reason for criticising the mailing system, etc. is that if this discussion between the two never really took place, then the basis of the book is false and it should not have been written in the form of a debate/discussion. If it was another book about all these issues written in a normal format, then that is another matter, but the incidents surrounding the book are very important to consider in this case.

If you say that "All the Companions were good" and your define compainons as all of the Muslims who were with the Prophet (a.s.) during his lifetime, then the Quran clearly contradicts this. If you define the Companions more narrowly, then a more careful examination would be neccessary.

The definition of Companion as far as Sunni Islam is concerned is quite clear: A "Sahabi" is a person who became Muslim during the Prophet's life, met the Prophet while the Prophet was alive, and died while in the state of Islaam, either before or after the Prophet. Thus, the very definition of "Sahabi" in Sunnism does not allow for apostasy, hypocrisy, or any other similar evil, because in this case the individual would not be a "Sahabi", simply beacuse he died as a non-Muslim. In any case, this issue will probably need a bit more discussion later.
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Ali Zaki View Drop Down
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Points: 217 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2005 at 1:38pm

THE POSITION OF ISLAMIC SCHOLARSHIP REGARDING THE POSITION OF THE IMAMS AND OTHER PROPHETS.

First of all, I certainly do accept Imam Khomeni (r.a.) as a legitimate scholar, although much of the details of this statement need to be understood in the context of his particular scholarly tradition (i.e,, the Urfani). Dr. Hamid Algar is also a very knowledgeable scholar, and is an excellent source of information on Shia Islam (he is also a proffesor at a secular universtity, U.C. Berkeley).

To understand the meaning of this, one must understand that, from our perscpective (i.e. in relations to their infallibility, the neccessity of their followers to follow their guidance, etc.) their is NO difference between any of the prophets.

And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission . . . (4:64)

The Knower of the Unseen; so He does not reveal His secrets to any except to him whom He chooses for an apostle; for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him, so that He may know that they have indeed delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses what is with them and He takes account of everything. (72:26-28) 

All the prophets are free from error or sin, and they all must be obeyed. However, two issues must be considered. The two issues are, 1.) This mission of each messenger or Imam is different based on the circumstances of his time and Umma and not all prophets or Imams are given the same type of mission and 2.) Each prophet or Imam has a specific degree of ability, or stength based on his spiritual (or metaphysical) nearness to Allah (s.w.a.)

Sayed Tabatabi in 'Al-Mizan' gives an excellent discourse on this point in his tafsir of Surat Al Baqara, v.134, and I will just include a small portion of it for explanation.

" Now look at the life of Ibrahim (a.s.). He was a prophet, a messenger of God, one of the ulu 'I-azm prophets and an Imam; many of the prophets and messengers coming after him were his followers; and he was of the good ones, as the words of Allah clearly say: and We made (them) all good ones (21:72). This verse also shows that he was made, in this very world, one of the good ones. Consider also the fact that many prophets of lesser rank were made, in this very world, among the good ones. Then why does he pray to Allah to join him to the good ones?

It is clear from this prayer that there was a group of the "good ones" who had gone ahead of him, and now he was praying to Allah to join him to them. Allah granted him his prayer "in the hereafter", as is mentioned in the Qur'an in three places - one of which is the verse under discussion: and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the good ones (2:130). Other two verses are: ... and We gave him his reward in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the good ones (29:27). And We gave him good in this world, and in the hereafter he will most surely be among the good ( 16 :122).

If you ponder on the foregoing details, you will know that the  �goodness" has many ranks, one above the other. Therefore you should not be astonished if you are told that Ibrahim (a.s.) had asked to be joined to Muhammad (s. a. w. a.) and his purified progeny (a.s.), and that Allah granted him his prayer in the hereafter, not in this world. Ibrahim (a.s.) had prayed to Allah to join him with the good ones, while Muhammad (s.a.w.a.) unambiguously claims this honor for himself: Surely my guardian is Allah, Who revealed the Book, and He takes in hand (the affairs of) the good ones (7:196). It is obvious that Muhammad (s.a.w.a.) claims the wilayah for himself. In other words, the Prophet, according to his claim mentioned in the verse, had already got the "goodness"; and Ibrahim (a.s.) was praying to be joined to a group of "good ones" who had already been given that rank, and that group was Muhammad (s.a.w. a.) and his progeny."

http://www.almizan.org/Tafseer/baqarah30.asp

I have heard from some Shias that all Prophets are Imaams

Of course, this is incorrect because a person must have an 'Ummah' to be an Imam, and there are many examples in the Quran of prophets that did not have an Ummah or any leadership position.

The definition of Companion as far as Sunni Islam is concerned is quite clear: A "Sahabi" is a person who became Muslim during the Prophet's life, met the Prophet while the Prophet was alive, and died while in the state of Islaam

I have heard many definitions of the Sahaba among the Sunni's, and I am sceptical that there is one agreed upon definition. Also, can you please explain (and give some references for) the Sunni position regarding the qualities of the Sahaba (I don't want to make assumptions). If this is given, I will try (inshahAllah) to explain and give reasons and acceptable references for the Shia position on this.

Salam
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Abu Hadi View Drop Down
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Salams to all sincere brs and srs,

Let's refocus, please! My purpose is not to spout my positions to people, my purpose is to discover truth, otherwise this is just a waste of time for me. If anyone out there can convince me that the Prophet Muhammed(p.b.u.h) whom I accept (and who all muslims accept) as my Master and Leader, and had commanded the people to select the leader after them, thru a popular election process, then please bring widely accepted and credible evidence, and I will accept this position (i.e. become Sunni). I am not convinced yet, for the following reasons

- Did the Prophet(p.b.u.h.) ever use a popular election to decide the leadership of the muslims ?

I am not a scholar of Islamic history, but I have read quite a few books and I have never heard of a single instance of the Prophet(p.b.u.h) ever doing this. The Prophet taught us by his example, and everything that he expected us to do, as muslims, he also did , and repeated it on many occasions. This may seem an obvious point, but I will give examples

  • The Prophet expected us to pray, fast, make the hajj, give charity, have good manners, etc. He did all of these things and repeated them many times in front of the people because he knew he would be alive for only a short time and the Ummah of later times would not get to see him personally perform these actions, so he was instructed by Allah(s.w.a.) how to carry out these things and he carried them out in public, repeatedly as he was instructed by his Lord and Creator.
  • Does it make any sense that the Prophet would instruct his followers in every big and small issue and leave the most important issue up to the people (i.e. leave no instructions for how this was to take place) Is the number of Tawaf that we make when doing hajj or the form of Wudu more important than the leadership of the Ummah from the time of the Prophet(p.b.u.h) till the day of Judgement ?
  • The Prophet did instruct the Ummah in matters of leadership. Firstly, whether it was who would carry the Standard of Islam in battle, or who would be in charge of certain affairs when the prophet was absent, he always appointed someone, he never left this up to the people.
  • The events of Ghadir cannot be looked at in isolation from all the events preceeding it, due to the following above points. Thru previous events, the Prophet had already established the precedent regarding how the Ummah should deal with the issue of leadership, and in addition, he had established who the leaders of the Ummah should be. The events of Ghadir were only meant to codify, and to make official what was already well known to the people.

If the other brs , such as jello, are correct, and the Events of Ghadir had some other, lesser purpose, then what was that purpose ? Why would Rasoollalah(p.b.u.h) call those who were behind to come forward, and those who went forward to come back while the other thousands were left standing for hours in the middle of a burning desert with no shade or other form of relief. Did he do this merely to tell people to love and respect Ali, or that Ali was his friend (as some sunnis say). Excuse me , but that explaination is ridiculous on the face of it. If you consider the above point, and get rid of your prejudice and misconceptions, what other conclusion can we reach.

The truth is simple.

With Salams,

 

 
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Abu Hadi View Drop Down
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HERE IS THE SERMON, for those who haven't already read it

This is the website that I copied it from

http://www.balagh.net/english/ahl_bayt/the_message/61.htm

"

All glory is specially for Allah. We seek His help and have faith in Him and rely upon Him. We seek refuge in Him from our evil doings and indecent deeds. He is the Lord besides whom there is no guide. There will be none to mislead one whom He guides. I testify that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger. Yes O people! I may soon accept the Divine invitation and may depart from amongst you. I am responsible and you too are responsible. What is your opinion about me?" At this stage those present said loudly: "We testify that you have carried out your mission and made efforts in this behalf. My Allah reward you for this!"

[1] Rabigh is a place situated between Makkah and Madina.

[2] It is one of the Miqats (i.e. places where ehram is put on). From here the paths of the people of Madina Egypt and Iraq were separated.


( 753 )

The Prophet said: "Do you testify that the Lord of the World is one and Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger and that there is no doubt about life in the other world?" AII of them said: "lt's correct and we testify it".

Then the Prophet said: "O my followers! I am leaving behind two valuable assets as legacies to you and it is to be seen as to how you behave with these two legacies of mine".

At this moment a person stood up and said with a loud voice: "What do you mean by the two exquisite things? To this the Prophet replied; "One of them is the Book of Allah one side of which is related to Allah and the other side is in your hands. And the other thing is my progeny and my Ahl al-Bayt. Allah has informed me that these too memorable things will not act separated from each other".

Yes O people Don't seek precedence over the Qur'an and over my progeny and do not be negligent in your behaviour towards them lest you should be annihilated. At this moment he held the hand of Ali and raised it so high that the whiteness of the armpits of both of them became visible to the people. He introduced him (i.e. Ali) to all the people and then said: "Who enjoys more rights over the believers than themselves?" All of them said Allah and His Prophet know better . Then the Prophet said: "Allah is my maula (master) and I am the maula of the believers and I am more deserving and enjoy more rights over them than they themselves.

Yes O people! Of whomsoever I am the maula this Ali is also his maula.[1]

"O Allah! Love those who love Ali and be inimical to those who are inimical towards Ali. O Allah! help Ali's friends; humiliate his enemies and make him the pivot of truth".

In the meanwhile the Archangel Jibreel came and brought this verse: This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favours to you and have chosen for you the religion Islam (Surah al-Ma'idah 5:3)

At this moment the Prophet pronounced Takbir loudly and
then added: "I thank Allah for His having perfected His

[1] In order to make sure that no misunderstanding arose afterwards the Prophet repeated this sentence thrice.


( 754 )

religion and for having completed His favour and for His having been pleased with the mastership and succession of Ali after me". Then the Prophet stepped down from the platform and said to Ali: "Sit in a tent so that the chiefs and distinguished personalities of Islam may shake hands with you and congratulate you".

The two shaykhs (Abu Bakr and Umar) congratulated Ali before all others and called him their maula.

Hassan bin Thabit the renowned poet after obtaining the Prophet's permission recited the following verses:

"He said to Ali: Stand up for I have selected you to succeed me and to guide the people after me".

"Of whomsoever I am the maula Ali is his maula. You love him sincerely and follow him".
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Salaam

Just a simple objection I wanted to point out: Abu Hadi says that the Prophet stopped everyone in a "hot burning desert". Some Shias even try to imply that it was the hottest time of the year, etc.  This is an amazing claim based on the fact that the Ghadeer event was on the 10 March (it is still winter in the Northern Hemisphire), and the name Ghadeer by definition means a Pond, a place of shade and water in contrast with the desert.

Another issue has to do with the poet Hasan ibn Thabit: Is he counted among the "Shia of Ali" Companions or not? Have Shia scholars all accepted his Shiaism? Obviously, this is to be asked, since the Shia are implying that Hasan ibn Thabit understood perfectly what the Prophet meant and composed poetry in favor of the events that had taken place.

 

 



Edited by jello
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Mister Abu Hadi, like other Shias, has said that the Prophet always appointed someone to a military expedition, or in his absence, and so on. Since the Prophet's decision is final and infallible in all his appointments, may I know specifically the people he appointed to the many different positions during his lifetime, according to Shia historians ?

Another interesting issue I have discovered about this Ghadir Khum event, with respect to Angel Jibreel's descent. As we might remember, Ali Zaki said that Jibreel told the Prophet several times before-hand to stop at Ghadeer Khum, and the revelation of Verse 5:67 was done in harmony with these orders. However, in "The Message" what we have is simply:

the Archangel Jibreel descended at a place called Ghadir Khum and communicated the following verse to the Prophet:

O Messenger! Convey what is revealed to you from your Lord for if you do it not it would be as though you have not conveyed His message. Allah will protect you from the people. (Surah al-Ma'ida 5:67).

Interesting to note that Ayatullah Subhani does not mention the other occasions of Jibreel's descent at all, instead giving the impression that the Prophet heard this the first time and decided to immediately stop "in his tracks" so as to say.

So which version is correct ?  I am sure that both "correct histories" have been written by Ayatullahs, so why the obvious difference ?
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Originally posted by jello jello wrote:

Another interesting issue I have discovered about this Ghadir Khum event, with respect to Angel Jibreel's descent. As we might remember, Ali Zaki said that Jibreel told the Prophet several times before-hand to stop at Ghadeer Khum, and the revelation of Verse 5:67 was done in harmony with these orders. However, in "The Message" what we have is simply:

the Archangel Jibreel descended at a place called Ghadir Khum and communicated the following verse to the Prophet:

O Messenger! Convey what is revealed to you from your Lord for if you do it not it would be as though you have not conveyed His message. Allah will protect you from the people. (Surah al-Ma'ida 5:67).

Kan you quote the source that say this aya was reveled in Ghader Khum, because i have sen you beating around this aya to many times.
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