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Sharia: Coerced Conversion Binding?
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ejdavid View Drop Down
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Points: 173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejdavid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:49pm
Angela - You quoted Gandhi: "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

I paraphrase an unknown comentator: "Had India been ruled by National Socialist Germans, and not Great Britain, instead of becoming an international hero, Gandhi would have become a lamp shade."
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ejdavid View Drop Down
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Points: 173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejdavid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:58pm
Andalus - You wrote: "Starvation is the bullet.The Food is the protection.The protection comes at the price of accepting their beliefs.The differences are subtle, but the principle is identical."

So. Throw a life preserver to a man swiming in a dangerous swirling stream if he converts to Christianity is the same as pushing him under if he does not. Subtle diference, but identical?

Yeah. Sure.
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Points: 173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejdavid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 August 2006 at 1:21pm
Andalus - You wrote: "This very irrational statement implies that you are full aware of the deception, and wish to white wash it."

I am clear and explicit in my posts. I do no dissimulate in anything I say. For instance, I discuss people who are at risk of death by starvation.

I explicitly say bribing as many people as possible with whatever food is available for the task is different and supperior to threatening them with actual and immediate death. This is neither dissimulation nor white wash.
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Andalus View Drop Down
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Points: 1187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 August 2006 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

I have to agree with this one.  That is why my church sends humanitarian aid in without missionaries.  We often send our food and supplies through Islamic foundations so that there is no coercion or expectation attached to the aid.

Its also why I shy away from places like Christian Children's Fund.  My humanitarian aid should not come with strings.

Hi Angela!

To be fair and for clarification, I acknowledge that there are Christian groups that try and do real good for the sake of doing good. And there are numerous reports of these good charity organizations running into angry locals due to bad groups who have came in and caused problems.

 
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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runner View Drop Down
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Points: 44 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote runner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2006 at 4:53am
Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Originally posted by ejdavid ejdavid wrote:

Sirs:

Two Fox News reporters recently converted to Islam at gun point. Does Sharia law provide that these conversions are binding?

No.

It would be similar to cases where Christian missionaries target desperate people in desperate lands, and under the gun of starvation, will accept Christianity. Islam considers any conversion to a faith under the flag of duress as invalid.



Do you know of any Christian missionaries who deny food to hungry people who will not convert?  Every group that I know of offers aid to whomever needs it regardless of whether they convert or not and would reject those who do that.

This is an entirely different circumstance than offering aid to people who will not tolerate their presence, is it not?
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ak_m_f View Drop Down
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Points: 3272 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ak_m_f Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2006 at 5:13am
Originally posted by runner runner wrote:


Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Originally posted by ejdavid ejdavid wrote:

Sirs: Two Fox News reporters recently converted to Islam at gun point. Does Sharia law provide that these conversions are binding?



No.


It would be similar to cases where Christian missionaries target desperate people in desperate lands, and�under the gun of starvation, will accept Christianity. Islam considers any conversion to a faith under the flag of duress as invalid.

Do you know of any Christian missionaries who deny food to hungry people who will not convert?� Every group that I know of offers aid to whomever needs it regardless of whether they convert or not and would reject those who do that.This is an entirely different circumstance than offering aid to people who will not tolerate their presence, is it not?


Remeber the missionaries had christmas when Tsunami struck.

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/24shoba.htm


follwoing article taken from yahoo.com

Quote
Villagers furious with Christian Missionaries

Samanthapettai, Jan 16 (ANI): Rage and fury has gripped this tsunami-hit tiny Hindu village in India's southern Tamil Nadu after a group of Christian missionaries allegedly refused them aid for not agreeing to follow their religion.

Samanthapettai, near the temple town of Madurai, faced near devastation on the December 26 when massive tidal waves wiped it clean of homes and lives.

Most of the 200 people here are homeless or displaced , battling to rebuild lives and locating lost family members besides facing risks of epidemic,disease and trauma.

Jubilant at seeing the relief trucks loaded with food, clothes and the much-needed medicines the villagers, many of who have not had a square meal in days, were shocked when the nuns asked them to convert before distributing biscuits and water.

Heated arguments broke out as the locals forcibly tried to stop the relief trucks from leaving. The missionaries, who rushed into their cars on seeing television reporters and the cameras refusing to comment on the incident and managed to leave the village.

Disappointed and shocked into disbelief the hapless villagers still await aid.

"Many NGOs (volunteer groups) are extending help to us but there in our village the NGO, which was till now helping us is now asking us to follow the Christian religion. We are staunch followers of Hindu religion and refused their request. And after that these people with their aid materials are leaving the village without distributing that to us," Rajni Kumar, a villager said.

The incident is an exception to concerted charity in a catastrophe that has left no one untouched.(ANI)

http://in.news.yahoo.com/050116/139/2j1rp.html


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Andalus View Drop Down
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Points: 1187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2006 at 7:54pm

Originally posted by ejdavid ejdavid wrote:

Andalus - You wrote: "This very irrational statement implies that you are full aware of the deception, and wish to white wash it."

I am clear and explicit in my posts. I do no dissimulate in anything I say. For instance, I discuss people who are at risk of death by starvation.

I explicitly say bribing as many people as possible with whatever food is available for the task is different and supperior to threatening them with actual and immediate death. This is neither dissimulation nor white wash.

Purposely targeting a group of people because they are weak and incapable of making any kind of personal stand due to the threat of death from starvation is not only desperate, but dishonest.

To purposely target such people as a way to force your theology is intellectually bankrupt.

To hold food over a starving person as a means to force convert someone is using the threat of death.

It really is that simple.

Islamic theology teaches that someone cannot be forced converted.  
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Andalus View Drop Down
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Points: 1187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2006 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by runner runner wrote:

Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Originally posted by ejdavid ejdavid wrote:

Sirs:

Two Fox News reporters recently converted to Islam at gun point. Does Sharia law provide that these conversions are binding?

No.

It would be similar to cases where Christian missionaries target desperate people in desperate lands, and under the gun of starvation, will accept Christianity. Islam considers any conversion to a faith under the flag of duress as invalid.



Do you know of any Christian missionaries who deny food to hungry people who will not convert?  Every group that I know of offers aid to whomever needs it regardless of whether they convert or not and would reject those who do that.

This is an entirely different circumstance than offering aid to people who will not tolerate their presence, is it not?

I do not keep a list of the multitude of names of the many groups that exist. I do know of incidents where it does happen.

The toleration is due to the fact that the target group of missionaries are those who are not in a position to be intolerant.

 
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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