Fundamentals of organzed religion

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

s666 wrote: the fundamental question as i have been saying even to anon123 is "what is good and what is not good?",  which can also be put as "what is truth and what is false?" it will depend on the person and the community he or she has born into. We as muslims are told that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has put it in humans to be able to differntiate between good and bad. If you look through out the world, the basic morals are quite alike. Lying, stealing, cheating, killing and non-marital relations are all taken as bad. I am sure many would say that in west relationship is a norm but i will ask, why a child outside the marriage is called what its called and its swear word. There must be some thing wrong in that or not? Now if you want to take it regarding worship then almost every religion believes in a Highest authority but some associate others with that authority in some of His powers. This along with many things are the ones which are through the corruption of human minds. fatima wrote: Secondly humans been short sighted is regarding the absolute power of law making. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has kept this for Himself knowing humans are not capable of it. Islam tells people to get married and then have physical relationship, islam forbids any ties outside marital bond, islam asks parents to bring up thier kids in best of thier capacity, give them love and security. Kids are told to respect and obey thier parents. This results in formation of good society. A stable home results in up bringing of another stable generation. and i think we are talking about the ethical system and not the legal system. to quote you. Thats where the problem starts for people who dont understand islam, islam does not say keep your ethical values totally seperate of your legal ones, same way islam does not give a seperate religious or political system. When we say Islam gives a complete way of life, we mean it. If you keep your ethics totally seperate then with generations your values are going to fall short if they are not protected. Then your legal issues are going to have to change and it ends up in total chaos, best example of this chaos is that of family values and relations in the west. fatima wrote: Lastly about being a humanist, yes its all right and true relying on your judgement for taking good from where ever you see it. But at the end of the day, humans are short sighted. different countries have different legal systems.  one cannot say that a country with the best legal system is more stable.  the problem is with the implementation. can you tell me which country implements hudud? Thats where the buck stops for all the critics, dont it? Thats the problem that no country is following the true religion of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. A country with the best legal system is most stable if that country and every one in it is abiding by the law (with the exception of few badies ofcourse). If you look at the time of Umar bin abdul aziz, he was the caliph of one of the greatest empires but there was no one in his state to accept the charity due to prosperity of the nation. He is called the fifth rightly guided caliph even though there were decades between his time and Ali (ra). He was able to change the course of coutry only because he followed and implimented the true laws to himself and his people.  isn't your signature itself a contradiction which says Allah is forgiving, merciful but where as Allah does not forgive infidels? Well He is most forgiving to poeple who recognise His rights even though some time they may fall short, who fear the account. But I am confused that if you dont even believe in Him why are you so eager to prove He is not forgiving. If you dont believe in the account what does it matter to you whether He is Mercifull or not?

wassalam

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi S666, so how do i know associating other dieties with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is corruption of human mind. Well its easiest thing if you think about it, have you ever seen two heads of state? or even a simplest thing like family situations. One person has to be the decision maker with a bit more authority than the other to run things smoothly, right? Now look at the your surroundings, can you fully comprehend the vastness of the universe? You cant, can you? Have you ever witnessed a matter which could be result of two equal forces working in opposite? The matter of the universe run so smoothly that its creator, guard and operator has to be ONE.

S666 wrote, do you mean to say that severing of one's right hand for stealing is ethical?
Well this is a law sent by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, we do not derive our laws out of ethics, it works other way round for us. Let me tell you two basic concepts of islam, one is that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala forgives His own rights to whomever He wills but He does not forgive right of other people. Second concept is that of gambling being haram. Gambling is haram because you are getting money which you never earned honestly. When you steal, you taking away some1's hard earned money from them. If the punishment is few months in prison or few grands, thief does not really care and makes this easy income his profession, example for this is increasing numbers of thefts in U.K. and many other places. Now if the person knows that on being caught he is going to loose a limb, he is going to think about it long and hard. The best example of this law working is in UAE, you forget your case full of money on a road and if you trace back, you will find it there. In comparison to any where else in the world where you wont even find a 50 if you loose it some where. Now every body talks about how harsh this punishment is but there is a responsibility govt takes when they cut some1's hand. That person get income support all his life.

S666 wrote, so you say that hudud is practical, isn't it?

Yeap,

S666 wrote, every country has its own great rulers, don't they?

Thats where islam differs again. So who is a great ruler? The one who benefits his country most, right? In most recent times, Bush and Blair, they both got elected twice even though they are responsible for creating a chaos in half of the world and murdering many innocent people. Thier people chose them again because they had policies which were benefiting thier country so to hell with the rest of the world, was it not? If you speak to a german, he still considers hitler, the great leader. Because he gave germans a sense of belonging, that they are some thing and many people think that this way of thinking has given them a great boost. But ask a jew, what would he say? Islam says a great ruler is the one who is a good servant of his Lord. The one who does every thing in his capacity to ensure truth and justice reaches every one.

Hope this satisfies your inquisitive mind

wassalam

fatima wrote: Hi S666, so how do i know associating other dieties with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is corruption of human mind. Well its easiest thing if you think about it, have you ever seen two heads of state? or even a simplest thing like family situations. One person has to be the decision maker with a bit more authority than the other to run things smoothly, right?

I shall point out Japan, prior to the fall of the Shogunate.  There were in fact two rulers.  The Emperor who was the Son of Heaven and the Shogun who was the Political and Military leader.  However, that does not apply to what Christians believe.

Okay, answering as a Mormon and not as a standard Christian, you have to understand that God the Father is supreme and Jesus, the Son is his servant as is the Holy Ghost.  They carry out the will of the Father, not their own will.  Thus God is still supreme.  They carry his authority as intermediaries, not in their own right. 

This I have seen as the major misunderstanding Most Muslims have with the belief of Jesus Christ. (In the realm of non Trinitarian Christians)  Giving God "partners" is the wrong way to look at it, these are supreme servants who are still subordinate to God the Father.

Now, as a Mainstream Christian (or Trinitarian) the arguement is absolutely different since Trinitarian Christians believe God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost to be three aspects of the same diety.  God is God, Jesus is the Same as is the Holy Ghost.  There is only one God who takes three forms.  Thus, they are not ascribing Partners, just defining the forms that God has taken in time.  I don't believe this, it doesn't make sense to me and I understand why Muslims also cannot understand this concept. 

But, in Polytheism, there are distinct and different Gods, each with their own authority and domains.  Zues was the King of the Gods, Ares the God of War, Aphrodite the Goddess of Love....this is ascribing partners to God.  This system removes God's complete omnipotence and divides the divine powers into several hands.

When I speak of Christ's healing the sick....as a Mormon, I am speaking of him healing the sick with the power that God gave him.

When a Trinitarian speaks of Christ's healing of the sick, they are speaking of GOD, in the form of Jesus Christ healing the sick.

The fundementals of belief regard one thing, human decision.  I believe because I have decided this belief is true based on instinct, feeling, reason, evidence and rationalization.  This is the same for a Muslim, a Jew or a Hindu.

Free will was the greatest gift that our Lord God gave us.  The freedom to choose right from wrong and to submit or rebel.

Everything is created by his will alone.  That is why we believe (Mormons) there is salvation for everyone.  The punishments will fit the crimes and though the Prison my stand for eternity, that does not mean you will be in it for eternity.  God is absolutely just and absolutely merciful.  Only he can really judge.