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StephenC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 4:47pm

"No, it was recorded, not created by Man, according to Allah."

Am I correct in my understanding that according to Islamic beliefs:

God told the Angel who told Muhammad who told his companions who wrote it down.

However, God, the all powerful spoke DIRECTLY to Moses (Exodus 20 and others).  And Moses gave the Word of God DIRECTLY to the people.  And the Toran (Old Testament) did not needed "clarification" by a committee.

So why did Muhammad and Smith need transcripters?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 5:02pm

"Gd is the authority. The Quran is a revelation from Gd, by His Authority.

It confirms past scriptures.

We have no way of knowing what is true and what is not true in the older scriptures."

Can it be proven that the Qur'an is a revelation from God?

Can it be proven that the Book of Mormon is a revelation from God?

Can it be proven that the Bible is a revelation from God?

etc. etc. etc.

I guess my point is that all religions are based the faith of the believer and not on "proofs."

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Andalus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

"No, it was recorded, not created by Man, according to Allah."

Am I correct in my understanding that according to Islamic beliefs:

God told the Angel who told Muhammad who told his companions who wrote it down.

Semantics.

Gabriel delivered the Quran to the Prophet Muhammad (saw). If I go to Pizza Hut and order a Pizza, or if I use the phone (an intermediary), it is still me who is ordering the pizza.

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However, God, the all powerful spoke DIRECTLY to Moses (Exodus 20 and others).  And Moses gave the Word of God DIRECTLY to the people.  And the Toran (Old Testament) did not needed "clarification" by a committee.

 

1) The Masoretic is not a stone tablet. Neither is the LXX. Both show that at least two tradtions exist, giving us to schools of though that wrote and transcribed for the sake of preservation. (the last I looked, I did not find stone tablets in the local Christian store).

2) Whether or not the revelation was placed on stone by Gd or in the heart by Gd, is irrelevant, as in both cases, the next step in transmission is both memory and written. In the case of the Quran, it was placed in memory, which is why to this day it has remained true, unlike other religous texts.

3) Actually the Jews did use committed to determine what was to be included in the Hebrew Bible and what wasn't. The Sanhedrin never left a record as to their criteria. Not only was the bible formed by committe, but one finds at least two different written traditions.

4) Committe was used to insure as much accuracy as possible, due to the fear of Allah of the first generation. Unlike other groups.

5) Your comment on committe was a red herring. I fear that your small attempts to obfuscate reveal an an evangelical.  

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So why did Muhammad and Smith need transcripters?

 

That's a complex question. 

Why did Moses need transcribers?

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

"Gd is the authority. The Quran is a revelation from Gd, by His Authority.

It confirms past scriptures.

We have no way of knowing what is true and what is not true in the older scriptures."

Can it be proven that the Qur'an is a revelation from God?

Cause and effect cannot be proven.

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Can it be proven that the Book of Mormon is a revelation from God?

Can it be proven that the Bible is a revelation from God?

etc. etc. etc.

I guess my point is that all religions are based the faith of the believer and not on "proofs."

So is science.

Prove the connection between cause and effect. Yet experimental science is founded upon induction.

Religion should not be based upon blind faith. Islam does not demand blind faith.

It is up to you to look at the evidences and make your decision.

But it looks bad when one throws out the skeptic card when it is convenient.

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 8:09pm

"But it looks bad when one throws out the skeptic card when it is convenient. "

So I should not question anyone who claims to have a message from God or an angel?

The fact that one God exists and is the creator is a given.

Who was God's messager or prophet is based solely on faith.  You can not prove that Muhammad was visited by God's Angel and I can not prove that he was not visited by God's angel.  The same goes for other prophets.

I believe God does speak to mankind and uses Angels.  However, if I compare undisputed encounters between mankind and God and/or his Angels with that of Muhammad (and Smith, Kresh, etc.) I find significant differences.

I do not mean any offense.  I am attempting solely to learn the truth.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

"But it looks bad when one throws out the skeptic card when it is convenient. "

So I should not question anyone who claims to have a message from God or an angel?

The skeptical card (position) and making a genuine inquiry are not the same things.

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The fact that one God exists and is the creator is a given.

Who was God's messager or prophet is based solely on faith.  You can not prove that Muhammad was visited by God's Angel and I can not prove that he was not visited by God's angel.  The same goes for other prophets.

You cannot prove with any rational argument that cause and effect exist.

The skeptics position is a powerful tool to pursuade ourselves that we are not sure about anything.

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I believe God does speak to mankind and uses Angels.  However, if I compare undisputed encounters between mankind and God and/or his Angels with that of Muhammad (and Smith, Kresh, etc.) I find significant differences.

I do not mean any offense.  I am attempting solely to learn the truth.

Please clarify "undisputed" (sounds like an evangelical catch term)  and please display the event that dispells the credibility of Prophet Muhammad (saw). I am not interested in Joseph Smith. There is a member here who is Mormon, and if she wishes to discuss him with you, that is her choice. If not, then that is also her choice and it should be respected. I am a Muslim, and would be happy to discuss our Prophet (saw).

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 4:05am

Muhammad lived in a cave for approximately two years.  Having been in caves before I know that the environment is different than the outside.  For example, in caves with bats, there is bat gano dust, which if inhaled can get into the blood stream.  There are also molds and mushroom type organisms.  I don't know the characteristics of the particular cave, but during the tour of Mammonth Cave in Kentucky, the tour guide told of the psycological effects of being in total darkness.

I am NOT saying Muhammad's vision (or Smith's) was the result of environmental aspects.  I leave that up to the reader to make their own decision.

My opinion is that there is absolutely NO proof that Muhammad's revelation came from God.  If you have anything remotely proving it or even an indication that it is true please let me know as I truly am seeking the truth!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 4:07am

"I am a Muslim, and would be happy to discuss our Prophet (saw)."

I take you on your word.  What did the Prophet see that indicates he was visited by an Angel from God?

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