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StephenC View Drop Down
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Points: 264 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 5:09am

I do not question that God exists.  However, I do question anyone who claims to have revelations from God.

As a criminal investigator with over 30 years service (and no lost cases) I look at all the facts.  Now pure faith is one thing and I respect that.

But as my Granny used to say, "Truth is of God, lies are of the Devil."

I do not believe questioning statements of those who claim revelations from God, is blasphemy.  However, false claims is blasphemy!
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Angela View Drop Down
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Points: 2555 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 9:30am

In the case of Joseph he didn't "NEED" a transcriptor.  It made the work go faster for him to be able to read/translate the plates aloud and have someone else write it down as he was going.  The people also served as witnesses to the work.  Emma describes feeling the plates through the cloth that cover them, the inscriptions and the weight.  Oliver Cowdery actually saw the Angel and held the plates in his hands. 

You want to not believe in either account.  That makes you look for some way to blame it on environment or lies.  But instead, have you set down and read the books, have you studied the accounts of the revelations from the sources.  (Not from sites dedicated to debunking them)

You are right, "The Truth is of God and Lies are of the Devil"

I don't know how many times, I've been told by Evangelical Christians flat out lies about my Church.
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superme View Drop Down
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Points: 463 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote superme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 10:51am
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

But as my Granny used to say, "Truth is of God, lies are of the Devil."

But what is the Truth?

I try to gather whatever I remember as I can get them. I searched these by using "The truth from thy lord", or in arabic "Al Khaqqu min Robbikum".

Is he who knoweth that what is revealed unto thee from thy Lord is the truth like him who is blind ? But only men of understanding heed; (13:19)

Those who have been given knowledge see that what is revealed unto thee from thy Lord is the truth and leadeth unto the path of the Mighty, the Owner of Praise. (34:6)

The truth from thy Lord, so be not thou of those who waver. (3:60)

Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained ? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.(6:114)

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. (10:94)



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Andalus View Drop Down
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Points: 1187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 10:58am
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

Muhammad lived in a cave for approximately two years.  Having been in caves before I know that the environment is different than the outside.  For example, in caves with bats, there is bat gano dust, which if inhaled can get into the blood stream.  There are also molds and mushroom type organisms.  I don't know the characteristics of the particular cave, but during the tour of Mammonth Cave in Kentucky, the tour guide told of the psycological effects of being in total darkness.

Speculation and conjecture.

Quote

I am NOT saying Muhammad's vision (or Smith's) was the result of environmental aspects.  I leave that up to the reader to make their own decision.

My opinion is that there is absolutely NO proof that Muhammad's revelation came from God.  If you have anything remotely proving it or even an indication that it is true please let me know as I truly am seeking the truth!

Please give the requirements for proof of prophethood.

 
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Angela View Drop Down
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Points: 2555 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 11:21am
  24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.
  25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.
  26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.
  27 But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth�and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.
  28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.
 
Andalus,
 
This scripture is truth.  When men are faced with true prophets that bring the word of God and command the people to repent, the rail against them.  They would much rather hear what they want to hear.
 
Prophethood requires only three things, message, miracle and purpose.
 
Noah, message of the flood, miracle of the ark, purpose to save humanity.
 
Moses, message of liberation, miracles abound, and purpose to lead the chosen of God out of bondage.
 
Elijah, message of repentance and prophecy, miracle against the false priests of Baal, purpose to bring forth God's message and power.
 
All of these men were rejected by the people around them and called crazy.  And the men that rejected them all suffered.
 
 
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Andalus View Drop Down
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Points: 1187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 11:47am
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

I do not question that God exists.  However, I do question anyone who claims to have revelations from God.

So you do not believe that Gd has given messages to man?

 

Quote

As a criminal investigator with over 30 years service (and no lost cases) I look at all the facts.  Now pure faith is one thing and I respect that.

But as my Granny used to say, "Truth is of God, lies are of the Devil."

I do not believe questioning statements of those who claim revelations from God, is blasphemy.  However, false claims is blasphemy!

I find this interesting given the amount of conjecture and specualtion you have used thus far.

Islam does not ask you to accept its claims on blind faith, and no religion should be based upon it.

Facts as suspect to interpretation.
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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StephenC View Drop Down
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Points: 264 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 6:16pm

"Please give the requirements for proof of prophethood."

Good question.  Maybe there is no proof of prophethood.  Anyone that wants to claim a revelation can.  So do we accept all who claim to be prophets?

Okay.  There is just as much proof of Muhammad being a prophet as there is for Joseph Smith.

Wait, didn't Muhammad claim to be the last prophet?  If that is true then Smith is a false prophet.  If Smith is a true prophet then Muhammad's claim to be the last prophet.

And is Jesus' statement in Revelation 22:18-21 is true then both Muhammad and Smith are wrong.

So how do we tell a true prophet from a false prophet?

I ask again (hoping to get an answer) how do we know that Muhammad was visited by the Angel Gabriel?
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StephenC View Drop Down
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Points: 264 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 6:19pm

"I am a Muslim, and would be happy to discuss our Prophet (saw)."

Can you tell me the Prophet's father's name and the meaning?
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