The Trinity and Tawhid

Cyril wrote: My position is that it is up to the believers in a religion to decide of their definition of God, not believers from another religion. The Quran seems to give a wrong definition of the Christian Trinity. If such is the case, then the Quran is right to dissuade Christians to follow such a belief as they would be polytheists.

Peace.

Your reply has an assumption buried in it that requires discussion. You cannot assume that the idea of "trinity" has been a static notion which began with Jesus himself, or from any of his followers. Indeed, in the first three centuries of your faith, the idea of the nature of Gd and the nature of Jesus lead to the splintering of coutless groups who tried to argue that their theolgical views were the correct ones. Christianity, regardless of the multitude of denominations, hold true to the basic notions put forth by the group who did win out during the early debates.

It should also be noted that many sects did exist that were out of the control of the church and they aded their own spin to the debate. Even now, your theologians discuss and argue the material. The Quran discusses an event where the Muslims were in contact with a group who had their views.

Though you may find that there are slight nuances which seperate your idea of trinity from those of whom the QUran was debating, one may still derive a very general idea about what the oness of Gd is, and is not, and is relevant to the main notion of trinity in mainstream Christianity.  

The Trinity has to be defined by its believers and by no one else. What do the Christians say: God is one, and there are three persons or "entities" in him. Although it may be hard to understand, it does not contradict the fact that God chooses the way he is, not humans, and the way he is can be beyond human understanding.

here is the problem:

1) There is no single "explicit" verse in the OT that allows one to derive, with any real confidence, that Gd is, as you say He is.

2) every verse that Christians use from which to prove the most fundemental point of their doctrine is from "implicit" verses.

so yes, we cannot tell Gd how He is supposed to be, but we can ask for "explicit" evidence from His revelation to decide how He actually is.

Take care.

"Christians did receive their revelation from God, from two channels. One is the Holy Spirit (=God according to the Trinity), the other one is Jesus (=God incarnate)."

The above still confirms that God reigns supreme and the two channels come under the direction and Command of God, whether one names the two channels as gods or Gods. Holy Spirit proceeds from God, which means it is the Command and the Will of God. Anything that proceeds from God cannot be God.

Of course, what John wrote was his own opinion and so do I have mine and I gave reason for that.

"Nearly all writings of the NT have been written after Jesus. Each author has added its contribution to the Christian faith. They are all considered as inspired by God. What you say about John can also be said about Paul."

Agreed that all writings of NT have been written by others, but there is a huge difference between being inspired and what is revealed by God. I am inspired to write what I am writing here but it cannot be considered a revelation. 

"As the Quran has been revealed not in one day, but in 23 years (some revelations have even been abrogated), the same way the Christian faith has been revealed at different times. A common occurence in religions."

Qur'aan was revealed to the same man over a period of 23 years. There was no change in the prophet or the messenger during the period, whereas different authors wrote the gospels with different audience in mind.

Of course, I am expressing my views as a Muslim. Even other non-Muslims such as Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, many others and even some Christians have similar views. I don't see Jesus speaking clearly about being a God or the God, anywhere in the NT. He maintained being a subject to God. I would not say that he was ambiguous but I would say that he spoke in parables and figurative language, which his own disciples could not understand. He had to explain what he spoke in parables, to them in private. 

"Peter and Thomas belong to the men inspired by the Christian God, as the Prophets mentioned in the Quran belong to the revelation from Allah."

I am sorry to write that I cannot accept this argument. Peter denied Jesus three times till the cock crowed and Thomas doubted him. Can we say they did that under inspiration? Certainly not! Both of them are weak witnesses.

"First of all, God (in the Christian faith) does not tear or split himself in three. He IS in three from eternity. Please try not to change the wording of concepts."

We do not see God as "He IS three from eternity" in any of the past Scriptures. We do NOT see God as a triune God even in the NT. We do NOT see Jesus declaring a trinity or a triune God. What we are saying is that a triune God was "created" by human minds after Jesus was long gone and the Nicean Council is a witness to that. The entire reason to call for that Council was to discuss and establish the nature of Christ, who he was, what he was, etc and that is how the Creed was developed after 365 years.

"Even if he would tear himself in three, how you as a mere mortal dare say what God should do or be like?"

Then how dared the mere mortals who declared that the Lord Almighty is three instead of One.

"You quote from the Jewish scriptures which offer the (nearly) same view of God as Islam."

Then, what are the Jewish Holy Scriptures doing in the Bible under the name the Old Testament? What is the need to have that book attached to the New Testament. You can't believe in the Second Part of a Book by discounting the prime First part of the Book, which is not even the exact reproduction of the Original Jewish Holy Scriptures?

"I would have dismissed it as we discuss the Christian view of God from the NT.
But as Christians (and Jesus himself) say their faith is deeply rooted in the Jewish Bible so we can also address God in the OT."

I don't think that is correct. Jesus taught from the Jewish Holy Scriptures. He taught,"You shall worship only your Lord God with all your hearts, all your minds and all your souls."

Jesus never said,"You shall worship Father, Son and the Holy Spirit with all your hearts, all your minds and all your souls." Here is the biggest problem I see with our Christian friends and that is they love Jesus with all their hearts, all their minds and all their souls instead of God Almighty but God and the Holy Spirit DO NOT receive the same attention.

"Christians add that God in the OT reveals how he looks like from the outside (as one) but not how he looks like from the inside (as three "persons")."

Cyril, I am not prepared to call God an Egg as if someone saw Him from outside and others saw Him through a laproscope.

BMZ 

Cyril and Andalus,

May I save your latest posts in my personal file? These were excellent.

Best Regards

BMZ