Trinity

First of all, I really couldn't understand your 'No' in your reply. Do you intend to say that Jesus never prayed to God or what? Do you have doubts that he did that despite that its through your own Bible?

Secondly, I am not suggesting you to look through God through any other way or means other than what Jesus did and taught. He never said that he himself is worthy of worship and always directed his followers to the God who had sent him. Jesus during his time of ministry, being the true messanger of God, was the only way through which right path to God must be identified. I think there is no conflict on this. Isn't it. Since it was him who brought the message, therefore its a natural source of guidance for all his people. So why can't we agree on this basic and simple understanding? Other than this, whatever way you like to interpret your scriptures, I care least as its only you who shall be answerable to God about your deeds and same goes to me or for that matter with any other person or people.

Not at all my freind.. i just beleive that Jesus being born from the Holy Spirit and himself saying he is the Living Word of God makes me say no that he is just merely a man. The above that is in bold shows that this is what your beleif says. Jesus said differently in the Bible :

"esus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; ²⁶and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

    ²⁷"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,^[b] the Son of God, who was to come into the world." (John 11)

And with the above Only GOD can raise the dead for this is GODS great power. A man cant do this. Especially wiuth the last section the word of god COMMANDS WORSHIP.

Without arguing about them, suffice is to say that these are all philosophical human extrapolations. You may find tens of hundreds of them all varying one from another. So much church denominations is just one example of this. Therefore, I would always avoid discussing them.

I do not have the need to avoid discussing them. And no it is not major issues. It is SIMPLE, everything not created is GOD. God is so powerful and the greatest ( God bless him). Simply dont you beleive in what you replied to, and if you dont why not?

Just to show you pitfalls of such philosophical arguements, you yourself has defined that anything created is not god. However this statement suggests that Holy Spirit gave life to word of God. Meaning thereby that somehow the word was not alive and was dead and this Holy spirit came out of god or proceeded from god and brought or created the word to life. Can anyone say such a thing? of course not. Probably you would provide yet another explanation of this to remove the apparant contradiction, but ofcourse it would be your own conjecture based upon extremely limited knowldge.

Please let us not be hyprocrytes. If YOU read carefully from the beginning the WORD OF GOD cannot be dead or alive for he has existed forever. Because he is the creator. But because GOD is so powerful the word of GOD can be shown in human form. It was prohecised. Jesus showed the power of God on earth. As i have it known, those who result in cheap insults that my knowledge makes me says these things rather than discussing what God taught shows that you canot have a sincere conversation? If i am wrong you would not ressort to my thinking, which you have done many times. God gave us a brain and a heart.

Worshipping Jesus implies negating oneness of God. God is the one and the only one to whom Jesus also used to pray. However, you would definitely ask questions then how the Bible talks about Holy spirit and word of God etc. To answer this, I would always suggest that these two terms have been used as the titles for two different and seperate entities. "Spirit of God" could mean any spirit created by God (Viewing God in confines of a body and hence having a spirit in it to be a living God, is again a fallacy negating the concept of infinite God), however, specific to Bible it means the angel Gaberial. Similarly the "word of God" could mean any messanger of God (Veiwing God to have a physical medium to speak e.g. travel of sound wave through air etc, is again a fallacy negating the concept of infinite God), however, specifically with regard to NT, it means Prophet Jesus who brought God's word (a message) of God.

Hence, in this way, we have retained the basic understanding of God to be one and only one without voilating other statements contained in the Bible.

Where do you gain your knowlegde for is you have read the bible the Angel is a MESSENGER OF GOD. Jesus is the WORD OF GOD. How can the Spirit of God be created when it is not created and thus a part of Him. God has said many times MY SPIRIT. Prophets are said to be INSPIRED BY GOD but are not directly his WORD. I though it was simple to understand. And maybe for the last time i said please refrain from making improper suggestions on my part. By worshipping Jesus you worship GOD because the BIBLE has always taught there is ONE GOD. GOD HIS SPIRIT AND WORD. ALL NOT CREATED for that is the POWER OF GOD.

This view of yours is not only limited in your own understanding of the scripture but also to the understanding of an infinite God as a whole. Once the God can create Adam from no father and mother, why do you feel it a necessary condition to create Jesus without a father, though he still had a mother. Taking a literal meaning out of this passage of the Bible is another big fallacy. Kindly go and consult some good christian theologian (not a typical pastor of your church) as how to comphrend an infinite God vis a vis this passage. Then ponder over it yourself as well.

What did you just say? Infinite God? Of course.. thats what i have said if you look above my freind. I do not need to ponder.. it is mazing how Muslims ( you) refer to personal cheap shots instead of talking about what i say. May God have mercy on you. And by the way Adam and Eve was born from DUST. JESUS from the HOLY SPIRIT. THE WORD OF GOD EXISTED BEFORE ADAM AND EVE. FOR THE ONE GOD IS INFINITE.

Believes in him for what? Believes in him that he is telling the truth that he has been sent by the God as the messanger and therefore believes in his message that he has truely brought it from God. Don't you read your own scripture? I don't know how any sane person can say that it meant that Jesus is claiming to be God here? Even if you take literal meanings of his sayings in this passage, have you ever observed yourself about those who believed him as a God, ever remained alive after their death? No, certainly not. This passage can only be explained through allegorical explanations and not through literal understanding. Allegorically, this passage states that he who believes in Jesus and then follows him for what all he has said, shall attain a permanent life after his death (meaning thereby that he would go to the heaven and not the hell and live there for ever).

wow what a thesis. No lets go over it againb. Jesus commanded worship by saying i am the life and resurrection. No matter how much you try to change these simple words  you are wrong. Now.. Jesus never said i am a messenger of God. He stated that the FATHER AND I ARE ONE, which is what the Bible taught and teaches, that GOD, HIS WORD ( JESUS) AND HIS SPIRIT ARE ONE.

Ofcourse any one can see that this is not what Jesus is saying. Isn't it. This part of the passage can't be declared as the saying of Jesus. Why would you Lable Jesus to be god from the misunderstandings of the others.

Actually to name someone that word who raised the dead ( ONLY GOD HAS THE POWER TO DO THAT) and Jesus never said you are wrong FOR THE WORD OF GOD CanT BE WRONG.

I think you would also realize that the Bible calls all such things performed by Jesus as "miracles". Isn't it? The miracles are performed by the humans as for God, such  things are not a miracle at all. Hence your logic fails by its own reasoning. However, this 'raising of dead' was not unique to Jesus only, kindly read OT and you would get surprised that how prophets raised the dead by the special powers given to them by God. In the same way, God gave special powers to Jesus. Yes, we believe that God gave Jesus many unique and special powers to make people believe in him that he was the true messanger of God. Commonly, these powers are called the miracles of the Prophets.

May God take Judgement. Only GOD CAN RAISE THE DEAD. FOR GOD IS THE CREATER. John at the very beginning stated

"In the beginning was the WORD, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made. In him was life"

But Jesus stated this already.. I am the life and resurrection. No MUSLIM or anyone can change the truth of God's WORD.

Brother, no blind faith can help. God has given us wisdom to recognise Him. Certainly, you said "God bless him". What do you mean here the word "him" if it doesn't refer to Jesus? So you yourself are wishing and praying God to bless Jesus. This is sufficient for anyone to understand that you are talking about two different entities. One who is the provider of blessing (i.e. The God) and the other is the reciever of the blessings (i.e. Jesus). I think you yourself are confused as what you say and what you trying to believe.

I do not have Blind faith. Why must you resort to such statements. Its wrong and shows how you cant talk about what i write without you attacking my faith. Now be sincere. I am not confused. In the BIBLE God says my Spirit and my Word. Simple. No confusion.

Excuse me my dear borther, its not me, but you yourself, who said that the Holy spirit brought life to the word. Here is your own quote "GOD in heaven sent the HOLY SPIRIT to give LIFE to the WORD OF GOD." So who is creating confusion here when at one time you say word cannot be dead or alive and yet in your previous quote you said the Holy spirit went and brought the word to life?

No need to be excused. Im surpised your English is good. For you just said the Holy Spirit which is God brought LIFE! On EARTH. For it has ALWAYS existed for nothing (God's word and Spirit) cannot be created.

Brother, how would you consider word of God means God Himself? Even from purely literal point of view, as you tend to consider, how could any spoken word be a phsical object. To understand through your own reasoning, we know, God created everything. He also created His "word" into an human form. Therefore this human form can never itself be a God since he has been created by the God through His own Word. Hence with all of your own arguments this human can't be called God by himself. Therefore Jesus can't be a God even though, as you say, was created by God from his "Word".

I dont think as a Christian or MUSLIM, no-one can claim to know who God is for we are finite and he is infinite. So what are you writing about?? Of course if the WORD OF GOD can be shown in such a human way, why do you say it is different from God?God cant be cut up into pieces. God as the Koran says sits on a kingdom on heaven and is also closer than the artery vein. This is what my great muslim freind told me. I agree in sentiment. God can be in two places at once and also be one. Its logical for God is most powerful and can do anything. He just says 'Be' to anything that isnt God.

My apology brother, a thousand time apology if I have ever insulted you in any manner. However, in a conversation, I always tried to present a logical view than a blind faith. The days for blind faith are over now. No one wants to go against his common wisdom and understanding. Everything must be known through proper references and not through anonymous sayings. I hope I have done my utmost to keep the same logical reasoning in my arguments. I would expect the same from others as well. In this time of ours, sentimental statements based upon blind faith are never encouraged. Rest God knows the best. May our God, the God to whom Jesus also used to pray, may show us the right path. Amen.

Of course and i have stated that i do not have blind faith, Thus for you to keep on saying it....

Yes May we be blessed by the ONE GOD. Through his word we know GOD, through his Spirit we are devoted to him. For GOD COMMANDS WORSHIP.

Kindly read OT and you would recognise the working of angels, especially the angel Gaberial. Isn't OT your own Bible? You should have read it before asking this question.

My freind i told you please show me where you got that, that an Angel is the spirit of God. That is wrong. An angel cant be a spirit of anything of God for he was not created. Hello my freind are you listening? I told you an angel is a messenger sent by God. In mathew he states Angel of the Lord. Angels belong to God for again they were created.

I have just showed you that it doesn't imply that Jesus himself is a god. The word "WORD" could also mean a messanger carrying the message of God.

NO. Jesus IS the WORD.

Cypriot Boy wrote: What did you just say? Infinite God? Of course.. thats what i have said if you look above my freind. I do not need to ponder.. it is mazing how Muslims ( you) refer to personal cheap shots instead of talking about what i say. May God have mercy on you. And by the way Adam and Eve was born from DUST. JESUS from the HOLY SPIRIT. THE WORD OF GOD EXISTED BEFORE ADAM AND EVE. FOR THE ONE GOD IS INFINITE.

So infinite God can never be finite as Jesus was. Isn't it? Then your difference of Adam being made of dust and Jesus made of word also not valid as Jesus lived on earth as Adam; and both were humans, as long as they remained on earth. Who knows what happened to them went they went away from the earth? Then you say Jesus died on the cross, of course God can't die what to call it on the cross or whatever you talk about. Are all these traits of an infinite God? Certainly not. Merely speaking of infinite God doesn't imply that your concept of Trinity also imply the same infinitness of God, especially with Jesus being one member of it simply because people lived with him here on this earth.

wow what a thesis. No lets go over it againb. Jesus commanded worship by saying i am the life and resurrection. No matter how much you try to change these simple words  you are wrong. Now.. Jesus never said i am a messenger of God. He stated that the FATHER AND I ARE ONE, which is what the Bible taught and teaches, that GOD, HIS WORD ( JESUS) AND HIS SPIRIT ARE ONE.

"Life" and "Resurrection" doesn't imply God. This is no command for worship but the command for obeying him. Kindly use mind with logic and not with faith alone. He was the commander of the faithfuls and not the god of the faithfuls. He never commanded worship for himself since he wasn't a hypocrate. Your NT Bible tells us that Jesus was tested by the Satan. Wasn't he? Then saying that he commanded worship implys he tried to Bluff not only Satan but his followers as well. I think this is a biggest Blasphemy against prophet Jesus. On the more you say he died for your sins on the cross. How come your god can die? Yet you say he won over the death? How? It can only be if had not died on the cross without resurrection. It is this logic that people neglect to understand when they start asserting about Jesus on earth. It is for this reason the Christian theologians have adopted the view of his godhood only after his assention to heavens and not before. It is for this reason that I advised you earlier as well, that leave the indoctrination of your pastors and go to your well educated theologians. Only then you will understand what is meant by calling Jesus as god while he was on earth.

Actually to name someone that word who raised the dead ( ONLY GOD HAS THE POWER TO DO THAT) and Jesus never said you are wrong FOR THE WORD OF GOD CanT BE WRONG.

I don't understand a bit of your logic here. Kindly understand that we (muslims) do believe that God did gave various miracles to Jesus and one of them was to raise the dead. That doesn't imply that he was God himself as this was not a unique miracle with Jesus only but had been with other prophets according to your own OT.

May God take Judgement. Only GOD CAN RAISE THE DEAD. FOR GOD IS THE CREATER. John at the very beginning stated

Yes, true. However, the miracls are also from the God side and prophets don't claim it untill they specifically say that its only through their God who has given them this power (Miracles) as a token for you to understand and believe in them. Again, kindly read OT yourself to familiarize with miracles stuff.

"In the beginning was the WORD, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made. In him was life"

As I said taking literal meanings out of this passage is a big fallacy that will contradict the infinitness of God. Hence it must be understood only through its implied meaning considering God to be infinite.

But Jesus stated this already.. I am the life and resurrection. No MUSLIM or anyone can change the truth of God's WORD.

So here, aren't you taking an implied meaning of 'life' and 'resurrection' otherwise in its literal meaning it doesn't make sense at all. Simply because "life" and hence "death" are only with respect to finite beings like we, humans etc. Word "Life" has no meaning with an infinite one. Similarly "resurrection" implies life after death which of course has no meaning with the "infinite" one. Therefore, my dear brother, think before you start using such big words. Using words like "resurrection" in association with "infinite" implies inherrant contradiction in your own statement (As I can't dare to say this as having said by Jesus).

I do not have Blind faith. Why must you resort to such statements. Its wrong and shows how you cant talk about what i write without you attacking my faith. Now be sincere. I am not confused. In the BIBLE God says my Spirit and my Word. Simple. No confusion.

I already gave you an example of word 'my' usage in the earlier posts or elsewhere. They have to be understood without literal human understanding of 'spirit' attached to it. Otherwise, what do you say about my word? What is word and what do you understand about it? Isn't  it a spoken word? So what is spoken word of God, the infinite? I would say its just "Be" and that is it; everything shall be done through this command. Even this 'Be' is just for our human understanding otherwise we even can't comprehend this much.

ahmadjoyia wrote: Excuse me my dear borther, its not me, but you yourself, who said that the Holy spirit brought life to the word. Here is your own quote "GOD in heaven sent the HOLY SPIRIT to give LIFE to the WORD OF GOD." So who is creating confusion here when at one time you say word cannot be dead or alive and yet in your previous quote you said the Holy spirit went and brought the word to life? cypriotboy wrote: No need to be excused. Im surpised your English is good. For you just said the Holy Spirit which is God brought LIFE! On EARTH. For it has ALWAYS existed for nothing (God's word and Spirit) cannot be created.

Is this the response for a simple question? I think one may have to improve upon his logical skills before considering such philosophical issues. Probably they are beyond one's comprehension...

I dont think as a Christian or MUSLIM, no-one can claim to know who God is for we are finite and he is infinite. So what are you writing about?? Of course if the WORD OF GOD can be shown in such a human way, why do you say it is different from God?God cant be cut up into pieces.

Simply because finite is opposite of infinite. Jesus on earth was finite and you are bent upon making him infinite. This is a open contradiction as what you tell us and as what we observe as human beings. Its you who are trying to make 3 is to one or one is to 3 kind of theories for your clear contradictions while cutting god into 3 (coequal, coeternal, coexistant) pieces. I would never ever imagine doing that. It is for this reason, and only for this reason, lets throw our conjectures behind and just say God is one and only one. Can we say this? I think we can? Then why not say it without going into the details, just say God is one and only one. Period.

God as the Koran says sits on a kingdom on heaven and is also closer than the artery vein. This is what my great muslim freind told me. I agree in sentiment. God can be in two places at once and also be one. Its logical for God is most powerful and can do anything. He just says 'Be' to anything that isnt God.

I would rather ask for the reference from the Quran to understand them myself. However, no sentimental arguments here would work, my brother. Its not logical to think in this way. There is a big fallacy in these kinds of arguments especially considering the infinitness of God. Therefore, I never take these concepts literally. Simiply stating infinitness can take care of all such concepts all by itself and hence no need to put theories into them.

Yes May we be blessed by the ONE GOD. Through his word we know GOD, through his Spirit we are devoted to him. For GOD COMMANDS WORSHIP.

Ok, I agree what you have stated here. So be firm what you have stated here and don't swing out from this statement. I think this is the crux of our mutual discussion. Let's pray to this one God and only one God, through His word we recognise Him and through His Spirit we are devoted to Him. Therefore He and only He is worthy of our all worships. Amen.

My Dear Bro DavidC,

I really appreciate your farsightedness. There is no way I can summarize the way you have done it. Thanks.