The Trinity and Tawhid

oregonbagpiper wrote:

I am really, really confused about something. Having been raised a Christian, having studied for the Catholic priesthood, and now, reflecting on many, many years of private study have left me with one thing that I would like input from Muslims on - the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems to me that for God to be God he must be unchanging (and unchangable). If God changes, he is not God - he is a changable finite being. If he even possesses the ability to change, he is not infinite and eternal.

Christians believe that God is infinite and eternal, and the doctrine taught in the Nicene Creed that God is to be understood in Three Divine Persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Even IF that is the nature of God, the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation - that is, that God the Son took on himself, Human Nature - implies that God has changed and 2000 year ago became something different: Now Father, Son/Human Being, and Holy Spirit.

It's really the doctrine of the Incarnation that troubles me. It seems to me that the Incarnation poses a number of problems for believing in a God who is Infinite, Eternal, Unchanging, and One.

Am I missing the ball here, or is one of the beliefs of Islam that God is eternal, unchanging, immutable, beyond time - Tawhid, I believe, encompasses this term.

I would greatly appreciate any an all feedback so as to clear up this matter. The Incarnation theology of Christianity is really the last stumbling block in my coming to Islam.

Thank you to any and all replies.

Peace to you,

It seems Im locked out of most of the topics hear and the trinity and issues that go with it are not my strong area of knowledge so I will give a comment on it just so I can begin posting on this wonderful forum.

I will be as honest as I can and try not to run rough-shot over any body's beliefs.

To be straight with you, Im not so sure the concept of the holy trinity can be fully understood.

All the time us Muslims are told that we have no understanding of the trinity. There are many definitions of the trinity. Two of them that come to mind are hypostatic union and kinesis.

For this post I will stick with the hypostatic union theory as used by most protestants. It is this:

�In the incarnation of the Son of God, a human nature was inseparably united forever with the divine nature in the one person of Jesus Christ, yet with the two natures remaining distinct, whole, and unchanged, without mixture or confusion so that the one person, Jesus Christ, is truly God and truly man� (taken from Elwells's Evangelical Dictionary)

Now that we have a working definition we can proceed. Right away I can see a problem with this. This claims that Jesus(sallahu alayhe wassalam) was both 100% man and 100% God at the same time.

What makes God God and what makes man a man? Their attributes. God is Merciful, Jesus(sallahu alayhe wassalam) was also Merciful. God Performs miracles, Jesus (sallahu alayhe wassalam) also did miracles.

So far so good. A person can make a long list of these. But God is unseen. Jesus (sallahu alayhe wassalam) was seen by many. A human being can not be seen and unseen at the same time. God is all knowing. But Jesus (sallahu alayhe wassalam) by his own admission was not all knowing. A person can not be all knowing and yet suffer from any form of ignorance. Some claim that his godly attributes would have covered up his human attributes. Now dont get me wrong hear. Jesus (sallahu alayhe wassalam) had more spiritual wisdom that perhaps any person that has ever walked planet earth but He was not all knowing as we see in this bible verse:

Mark 13:32 "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

At one point in my Christian studies I asked myself this question:

Did God All-Mighty the Creator of Heaven and Earth ever claim that he was Jesus (sallahu alayhe wassalam)? No. Did God All-Mighty ever claim he was in the form of a human being? What about Zeus? No. He never said he was Zeus. Or Buhada? No. He never said he was Buddah.

Now the Christians will argue John 1:1 "The word was God" Well are these the words of God? No. This was a person's personal philosophy. Christians will answer in the affirmative. John was led by the Spirit. How to argue with them? I think it is best not to. I have debated with Christians and the "Holy Spirit" is their life line. When you get them in a corner they say "but the spirit leads me." To them I say OK. Go be with your Spirit and have a nice life. Because it is impossible to reason with such a person.

To accept the trinity I think a person must meet this requirement:

Martian Luther the reformer wrote:

"Faith must trample under foot all reason, seance, and understanding and whatever it sees it must put out of sight"

"The Greatest proof against the trinity comes from observing Christians , seeing them stumble blunder while they attempt to argue its validity". (me) They even argue amongst themselves and can not reach a unified conclusion.

I could go on but this will suffice for now.

Tauheed on the other hand is an explanation or way of explaining the Oneness of God. Linguistically it means "to assert Oneness"

God is One in every way. In His attributes like being the sole Creator of everything. He is One in every way. In short He is the only One there is one of. Since He is only One this implies that all our worship should be directed to Him as He is the only one worthy of worship. God is One in His attributes. This means that we only say about God waht He says about Himself and do not overstep the boundaries of what He has told us to say.

Hear is a Quran verse to this effect:

Surah 112.

Qulhu allahu ahad Allahu alssamadu Lam yalid walam yooladu Walam yakun lahu kufuwan ahadun

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

More later if necessary...........

Peace be to you.

Edited by Redneck