Trinity |
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Cypriot Boy
Newbie Joined: 04 April 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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So infinite God can never be finite as Jesus was. Isn't it? Then your difference of Adam being made of dust and Jesus made of word also not valid as Jesus lived on earth as Adam; and both were humans, as long as they remained on earth. Who knows what happened to them went they went away from the earth? Then you say Jesus died on the cross, of course God can't die what to call it on the cross or whatever you talk about. Are all these traits of an infinite God? Certainly not. Merely speaking of infinite God doesn't imply that your concept of Trinity also imply the same infinitness of God, especially with Jesus being one member of it simply because people lived with him here on this earth.
Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit. He became fully man and God on earth. Of course you comparing the fact that Adam was human and Jesus as human mean that they are the same. No, only God can be fullyhuman and God at the same time for this is the power of God.
"Life" and "Resurrection" doesn't imply God. This is no command for worship but the command for obeying him. Kindly use mind with logic and not with faith alone. He was the commander of the faithfuls and not the god of the faithfuls. He never commanded worship for himself since he wasn't a hypocrate. Your NT Bible tells us that Jesus was tested by the Satan. Wasn't he? Then saying that he commanded worship implys he tried to Bluff not only Satan but his followers as well. I think this is a biggest Blasphemy against prophet Jesus. On the more you say he died for your sins on the cross. How come your god can die? Yet you say he won over the death? How? It can only be if had not died on the cross without resurrection. It is this logic that people neglect to understand when they start asserting about Jesus on earth. It is for this reason the Christian theologians have adopted the view of his godhood only after his assention to heavens and not before. It is for this reason that I advised you earlier as well, that leave the indoctrination of your pastors and go to your well educated theologians. Only then you will understand what is meant by calling Jesus as god while he was on earth.
First of all if someone declares that he is the life and resurrection that implies divinity. Now you tALK about being tempted by Satan. Please in your own time describe the conversation the word of God has with the Devil, you will then realise what you said before is not logical. Please state the conversation, do not merely say it without using it. As for the God head, the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist and also use the Transfiguration section in the Bible. Do not assume without reading the Bible in its entirety.
I don't understand a bit of your logic here. Kindly understand that we (muslims) do believe that God did gave various miracles to Jesus and one of them was to raise the dead. That doesn't imply that he was God himself as this was not a unique miracle with Jesus only but had been with other prophets according to your own OT.
So you beleive God gave his own infinite power to a human being? Yes we belive this too for Jesus was human and Jesus said many times that God gives him the power to do things. Because he came from the Holy Spirit and is the LIVING WORD OF GOD. Jesus said before existence of Abraham ,i am, ill get the reference. Only God exists forever and is infinate. The word of God said this to indicate that his origns are divine.
Yes, true. However, the miracls are also from the God side and prophets don't claim it untill they specifically say that its only through their God who has given them this power (Miracles) as a token for you to understand and believe in them. Again, kindly read OT yourself to familiarize with miracles stuff.
Of course i read the N.T, this is my Holy Book. I suggest you read the Bible too,especially this part " Jesus Walks on the Water22Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd. 23After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone, 24but the boat was already a considerable distance[a] from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it. 25During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. "It's a ghost," they said, and cried out in fear. 27But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 28"Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water." 29"Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!" 31Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?" 32And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God." 34When they had crossed over, they landed at Gennesaret. 35And when the men of that place recognized Jesus, they sent word to all the surrounding country. People brought all their sick to him 36and begged him to let the sick just touch the edge of his cloak, and all who touched him were healed." (Math)
As I said taking literal meanings out of this passage is a big fallacy that will contradict the infinitness of God. Hence it must be understood only through its implied meaning considering God to be infinite.
I do not beleive so. God from the beginning said his Spirit and my Word.Now to be a messenger of God like a prophet is possible and can happen as we have seen in the Book. But the actual word of God was conceived by the Holy Spirit , God was involved in all his power. Only God could do this.
So here, aren't you taking an implied meaning of 'life' and 'resurrection' otherwise in its literal meaning it doesn't make sense at all. Simply because "life" and hence "death" are only with respect to finite beings like we, humans etc. Word "Life" has no meaning with an infinite one. Similarly "resurrection" implies life after death which of course has no meaning with the "infinite" one. Therefore, my dear brother, think before you start using such big words. Using words like "resurrection" in association with "infinite" implies inherrant contradiction in your own statement (As I can't dare to say this as having said by Jesus). Amazing someone can twist the truth. Only God can give life. Only God has the authority to say these things. God's Word is life for he came and resurrected to show by beleiving we have eternal salvation. Life and being infinite is not a contradiction, foryou contradict yourself that only God can give life and take it away. I already gave you an example of word 'my' usage in the earlier posts or elsewhere. They have to be understood without literal human understanding of 'spirit' attached to it. Otherwise, what do you say about my word? What is word and what do you understand about it? Isn't it a spoken word? So what is spoken word of God, the infinite? I would say its just "Be" and that is it; everything shall be done through this command. Even this 'Be' is just for our human understanding otherwise we even can't comprehend this much.
As i said before Jesus is the living word of God, for that reason God tells us to listen to him... After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters�one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" 6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." 8When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. 9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." 10The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" 11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. (Math)
The first line underlined said listen to him. There is a distinction between being sent by the message of God and actually being God's word. The second sentence showed that Jesus knew what was going to happen and that he indeed resurrected.
Is this the response for a simple question? I think one may have to improve upon his logical skills before considering such philosophical issues. Probably they are beyond one's comprehension... Trust me, it wont take you far to insult one's way of thinking.I do need that because i dont do that with you. And Yes we as human do not fully comprehend God and is beyond comprehension. We beleive my brother on this point. Simply because finite is opposite of infinite. Jesus on earth was finite and you are bent upon making him infinite. This is a open contradiction as what you tell us and as what we observe as human beings. Its you who are trying to make 3 is to one or one is to 3 kind of theories for your clear contradictions while cutting god into 3 (coequal, coeternal, coexistant) pieces. I would never ever imagine doing that. It is for this reason, and only for this reason, lets throw our conjectures behind and just say God is one and only one. Can we say this? I think we can? Then why not say it without going into the details, just say God is one and only one. Period. Jesus origins are infinite, his human form came later but was supernatural for it gave birth to the the wordof God by the Holy Spirit. I am not hell bent on anything.Just what God has revealed to humans (God bless) I would rather ask for the reference from the Quran to understand them myself. However, no sentimental arguments here would work, my brother. Its not logical to think in this way. There is a big fallacy in these kinds of arguments especially considering the infinitness of God. Therefore, I never take these concepts literally. Simiply stating infinitness can take care of all such concepts all by itself and hence no need to put theories into them. I do nothing to work,just simplystating what my Muslim freind told me. Dont you realise that what you said above appliedto you, using parts of the Bible without understanding the theological aspects to it. Do not be a hypocryte. God is one and only one. Period. Agreed. But God is not simply by your human standards. Ok, I agree what you have stated here. So be firm what you have stated here and don't swing out from this statement. I think this is the crux of our mutual discussion. Let's pray to this one God and only one God, through His word we recognise Him and through His Spirit we are devoted to Him. Therefore He and only He is worthy of our all worships. Amen.
I do not know you but i respect you. I love my muslim freind. I agree, lets pray to the one God. Through his word we are saved and through his spirit we are shown the right way. Amen
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
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My dear brother CypriotBoy, This is strange but interesting that you can't even stay on with your own words. So what are we discussing here? Here is the difference what you said before (and I agreed to it) and what you are now making it. You even tend to remove the last part of your earlier statement in your new post.
and here is your new statement
Though, it is very obvious that the two statements of yours are not the same, however, you may still claim them to be equivalent, it is through your own perception. How good this perception is? Its not very difficult to analyse now. I would still hang on with your earlier statement than your later modified one and shall repeat it in my prayer: May we be blessed by the ONE GOD. Through his word we know GOD, through his Spirit we are devoted to him. For GOD COMMANDS WORSHIP. Amen!! |
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saalih
Groupie Joined: 24 March 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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what kind of god needs a spirit to be devoted to, or in order to communicate with god you have to speak through a spirit frankly because god can't hear you without jesus intercession. that's a weak god. tell me what did the christians believed before the Nicean accord.
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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Shakur, God made us with bodies. We cannot worship purely in spirit.
I understand in salat, and in performing wudu, Muslims must make physical motions. These do not "interceed" with God, but they are essential and do not denote any weakness. Instead, they integrate mind, spirit and body and make prayer whole. DavidC |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Apple Pie
Guest Group Joined: 21 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 138 |
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Greetings All, There seems to be a great deal of confusion regarding Islam�s understanding of their very own book of faith regarding the Biblical concept of the Trinity. Let�s review what 4.171 tells us�
� You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, � �wa� and do not say on Allah except the truth, � but the Messiah, Jesus, � Mary's son � Allah's messenger � �wa� and His Word � He threw it away to Mary, � �wa� a Soul/Spirit from Him; � �fa� so believe with Allah, � �wa� and His messengers, � �wa� and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you, � but Allah (is) one Allah, � �yakoona� verily he shall be a child for Him � what (is) in the skies/space � �wa� and what (is) in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with Allah (as a) guardian/protector. It is clear from the text that Jesus is both Mary�s and (in this case) �allah�s� son. Same theme copied from the Holy Bible. Observe that Jesus is not merely �allah�s messenger; but he is also �wa� his Word. Same theme copied from the Holy Bible. Furthermore, the �allah� of the Koran is shown to have a Spirit which is also imputed into Jesus. Same theme copied from the Holy Bible. Thus�.we have just witnessed three elements of �allah�. Now...look what is stated next� �do not say: "Three." Why should we not say that �allah� is three when we were just told of three elements that pertain to him�.? Here�s why� Because� �Allah (is) one Allah� What a novel idea. Sound familiar�.? It should, as it is lifted right out of the Holy Bible. Furthermore�look at what the text states after this� �verily he shall be a child for Him� Rock-solid Biblical confirmation that Jesus is God's son!!! I have to ask; can it really get much clearer than this for the die-hard Muslim�.?! Straight from their very own book of faith� No more excuses...
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Yusuf.
Senior Member Joined: 02 July 2001 Location: far from home Status: Offline Points: 2385 |
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Here is a good discussion of the evolution of the concept of the trinity: |
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Yusuf
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Yusuf.
Senior Member Joined: 02 July 2001 Location: far from home Status: Offline Points: 2385 |
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"wa" in Arabic has numerous meanings; it does not simply mean "and" in every circumstance. You should learn the language before you attempt to interpret subtleties of meaning. |
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Yusuf
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Apple Pie
Guest Group Joined: 21 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 138 |
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Greetings Yusuf, "wa" in Arabic has numerous meanings; it does not simply mean "and" in every circumstance. You should learn the language before you attempt to interpret subtleties of meaning. Bring forth your references... |
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