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Andalus 
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 Posted: 03 December 2006 at 5:32pm |
 Cyril wrote:
Hayfa wrote:
To a degree you are right but we have been given a mind to use. Most moslems I meet have not said it is a matter of belief. They have all encouraged me to think and use my mind. Rarely have I ever heard Christians say that. |
Muslims must use their minds... but according to the lines of the Quran. When it says that man is made from clay, you must precisely not use your mind or you would notice that it is a repeat of an old pagan myth.
Christians may not say that you have to use your mind but they just do it. See the tremendous progress in all types of sciences that has come from Christian countries compared to the rather "not use your mind" attitude of Muslim countries.
Christians by using their minds have taken God out of the realm of science which has liberated thinking. Has such a way of thinking been used or is used by Muslim societies?
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Greetings.
I was curious. You are implying that science is necessarily superior when it disconnects from Gd in the Islamic context, and that a "free thinking" results. Could you please demonstrate what progress science has been made that required a disconnect from Gd in the Islamic context? Furthermore, if keeping a connection to Gd and approaching the universe as teleological, within the Islamic view, is inferior and stifles thought, how do you explain the success of thought during the rise of Islamic Civilization?
Also, could you give an example of Islamic theology stifling scientific progress that would otherwise beneift man, perhaps in a pragmatic way?
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| In Islam, they say, look at life, look around you, use logic, use science. Use your mind. Then if you can look at these things in a way and can "see" the divine then you believe in God. And the Quran is about helping people to see these signs. |
The same teaching about seeing God around us is in the Bible. There is nothing new in the Quran.
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The bible is mainly focused on the relationship between Gd, the Torah, and the tribe of Judah as the new center piece after the destruction of Israel, and the sanctity of the Davidic line.
In this world we judge things according to their predominant attributes. From this, one could say that the QUran does urge it's reader to look to the world around them and see the signs and contemplate the miracles of life as a way to contemplate Gd. This is a common theme of the Quran.
This does not mean that the bible os completely void of the notion of looking around, but it does mean that the bible does not have this as a central teaching.
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| Jesus was one of the prophets / messengers. The message was corrupted by people for their own personal / political gain. It became corrupted and the Bible was altered to suit peoples' purposes.
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The usual worn-out questions: where (not where in the Bible but in which location did it occur), when and by whom?
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This is a type of non sequitur. The location of where a corruption was committed is not a proof that a corruption occurred, just as not being able to tell you where the corruption occurred in terms of location does not mean the corruption did not occur.
Kindest Regards
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
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Bismarck
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Posted: 08 December 2006 at 10:25pm |
rubies wrote:
�
Well one�well known example is��the story of the woman caught in
adultery.� Where Jesus (peace be upon him) reportedly says 'let him who is
without sin cast the first stone'.� (paraphrasing)
Bible scholars know that this story is absent from the earliest
manuscripts and is a later insertion.� You can read more about this here:
http://www.bible-
researcher.com/adult.html
Now, who added it?� When?� What else did they add or subtract? How
can anyone rely on such a book - the NT? |
Rubies,
My understanding is that, although the 'pericope' about the woman
caught in adultery may not have originally been in that Gospel, if it was
not, it was almost assuredly inserted because it was a treasured story
in its own right in oral tradition and it was inserted into the canon in
order to preserve it. Thus, its presence it not the same as saying
scripture was corrupted... just two treasured scriptures (the Gospel, and
that 'pericope') were combined in order to preserve both.
Best regards,
Bismarck
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Andalus
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 9:32pm |
Bismarck wrote:
rubies wrote:
Well one well known example is the story of the woman caught in
adultery. Where Jesus (peace be upon him) reportedly says 'let him who is
without sin cast the first stone'. (paraphrasing)
Bible scholars know that this story is absent from the earliest
manuscripts and is a later insertion. You can read more about this here:
http://www.bible-
researcher.com/adult.html
Now, who added it? When? What else did they add or subtract? How
can anyone rely on such a book - the NT?
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Rubies,
My understanding is that, although the 'pericope' about the woman
caught in adultery may not have originally been in that Gospel, if it was
not, it was almost assuredly inserted because it was a treasured story
in its own right in oral tradition and it was inserted into the canon in
order to preserve it.
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That is complete and absolute conjecture. All anyone can say with any certainty is that it was not a part of the tradition.
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Thus, its presence it not the same as saying
scripture was corrupted... just two treasured scriptures (the Gospel, and
that 'pericope') were combined in order to preserve both.
Best regards,
Bismarck |
Actually, in the context of transmission and textual criticsm, that would be considered an example of corruption.
regards
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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niqab_ummi
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Posted: 20 December 2006 at 5:42pm |
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Salaams and Assalamu'Alaikum to my muslim br's and sr's
Well I can point out one huge flaw and being a former Christian know this to be true and documented by many officials in the church the Bible was composed more than 300 years after Isa(AS) Jesus returned to Jannah-Heaven....by a priest that had no ties to any of the original appostles other than scattered verbal and some written accounts and interviews that had been passed down over the generations.....
The other being that it is not the word of Allah(swt) how could it be the exact word of Allah(swt) God if it was composed by a priest in a monestary 300 year after the fact....
What is left of the Injiil Gospel of Isa(AS) Jesus can also not be documented as 100% either since very little documentation had been done at that time.....
Isa(AS) Jesus was unable to complete his Prophet Hood at that time due to the governing body of rulers that were very unjust and will complete his work when he returns to earth to defeat Dajaal otherwise none in the non-muslim community as the Anti-Christ. At that time he will speak to everyone and unite everyone to the belief in One God........
MasSalaama |
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Umm Abdelkhalek
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Angel
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Posted: 20 December 2006 at 6:57pm |
niqab_ummi wrote:
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Isa(AS) Jesus was unable to complete his Prophet Hood at that time due to the governing body of rulers that were very unjust and will complete his work when he returns to earth to defeat Dajaal otherwise none in the non-muslim community as the Anti-Christ. At that time he will speak to everyone and unite everyone to the belief in One God........MasSalaama |
the reason why Jesus was unable to complete his Porphet due to the governing rulers, is not that. AND who says that Jesus didn't complete his work at that time?? Jesus had a mission he completed it, He has another in the future, to come back. |
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 ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Sarita
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Posted: 21 December 2006 at 3:12am |
niqab_ummi wrote:
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Well I can point out one huge flaw and being a former Christian know this to be true and documented by many officials in the church the Bible was composed more than 300 years after Isa(AS) Jesus returned to Jannah-Heaven....by a priest that had no ties to any of the original appostles other than scattered verbal and some written accounts and interviews that had been passed down over the generations.....
The other being that it is not the word of Allah(swt) how could it be the exact word of Allah(swt) God if it was composed by a priest in a monestary 300 year after the fact.... |
I have been a Christian my whole life and never heard of something like that before. Clearly it is NOT well documented. The Bible is written by God through his disciplies over a long period of time. Not one priest. And think about that for a minute. Priests only come from the Christian religion, if the Christian religion had no Bible, how could he have been a priest?
I am very interested in the Quran and Prophet Mohammed, but these kinds of make believe stories REALLY begin to tarnish it. I hope we can get back to focusing on the truth and proven facts. |
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niqab_ummi
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Posted: 21 December 2006 at 5:22am |
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Assalamu'Alaikum, and Salaams to all of our non-muslim guests,
It is well documented there are hundreds of places you can go to start with a good encyclopedia or dictionary at the very least here is a small part from a very lengthy exerpt.
Pope Damasus I assembled the first list of books of the Bible at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D. He commissioned Saint Jerome to produce a reliable and consistent text by translating the original Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin. This translation became known as the Latin Vulgate Bible and was declared by the Church to be the only authentic and official Bible.
The priests of the past were not priests by todays definition or standard.
There's little to no doubt that at that time some scattered documentations, and widely contested but in general accepted points of views and interpretations of the teachings and practices of Issa(AS) Jesus did exsist but not a complete text.
Go deeper into that time period and you will find that after Issa(AS) was taken to Jannah-Heaven the horrific killings by the romans continued the mass slaughtering of the followers appostles continued at a certain point a mergence or mutual aggreement came about to combine the Roman traditions and Christian beliefs after the Roman empire felt threatened....
For example look at the winter season now...
For hundreds of years Christmas was banned in the UK it wasn't until the late 1400's the church and governing bodies allowed it....It was viewed as not a true holiday of the birth if Issa(AS) but as a pagan holiday one that was celebrated in rioutus fun one with Roman Influences in relation to the winter solstice and Sun God worshiped by them.
No matter what your faith is you must delve deep into it's time period and history using not only the resource your church, temple, or masjid has provided but also outside well documented sources. When you study not only the text but also the history surrounding it. It brings much more understanding.
I do know Issa(As) did not finish his work because the Quran states that....and that's why he will return. Allah(swt) knows best.
No matter what your faith it has been well documented by Islamic Officials, Church Officials, and Jewish Officials that the Quran is the only book of God that has be so well preserved and maintained from the very first of it's revelations....There have been many documentaries, international conferances and articles on this subject.
Even if there were none I would say just by reading the Quran and the amount of detail and knowledge it provides about all of the book of Allah(swt) God is proof enough.....I learned many things in more detail about the Christian faith as a Muslim than I did as a Christian and that just backs up the evidence that the Quran is the Pure unaltered word of Allah(swt) God.
Wa'Allahu'Alim...God is the most Knowing.
MasSalaama, |
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Umm Abdelkhalek
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Sarita
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Posted: 21 December 2006 at 5:50am |
niqab_ummi wrote:
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Assalamu'Alaikum, and Salaams to all of our non-muslim guests,
It is well documented there are hundreds of places you can go to start with a good encyclopedia or dictionary at the very least here is a small part from a very lengthy exerpt.
Pope Damasus I assembled the first list of books of the Bible at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D. He commissioned Saint Jerome to produce a reliable and consistent text by translating the original Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin. This translation became known as the Latin Vulgate Bible and was declared by the Church to be the only authentic and official Bible.
The priests of the past were not priests by todays definition or standard.
There's little to no doubt that at that time some scattered documentations, and widely contested but in general accepted points of views and interpretations of the teachings and practices of Issa(AS) Jesus did exsist but not a complete text.
Go deeper into that time period and you will find that after Issa(AS) was taken to Jannah-Heaven the horrific killings by the romans continued the mass slaughtering of the followers appostles continued at a certain point a mergence or mutual aggreement came about to combine the Roman traditions and Christian beliefs after the Roman empire felt threatened....
For example look at the winter season now...
For hundreds of years Christmas was banned in the UK it wasn't until the late 1400's the church and governing bodies allowed it....It was viewed as not a true holiday of the birth if Issa(AS) but as a pagan holiday one that was celebrated in rioutus fun one with Roman Influences in relation to the winter solstice and Sun God worshiped by them.
No matter what your faith is you must delve deep into it's time period and history using not only the resource your church, temple, or masjid has provided but also outside well documented sources. When you study not only the text but also the history surrounding it. It brings much more understanding.
I do know Issa(As) did not finish his work because the Quran states that....and that's why he will return. Allah(swt) knows best.
No matter what your faith it has been well documented by Islamic Officials, Church Officials, and Jewish Officials that the Quran is the only book of God that has be so well preserved and maintained from the very first of it's revelations....There have been many documentaries, international conferances and articles on this subject.
Even if there were none I would say just by reading the Quran and the amount of detail and knowledge it provides about all of the book of Allah(swt) God is proof enough.....I learned many things in more detail about the Christian faith as a Muslim than I did as a Christian and that just backs up the evidence that the Quran is the Pure unaltered word of Allah(swt) God.
Wa'Allahu'Alim...God is the most Knowing.
MasSalaama, |
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Thank you so much for that!  Sounds fascinating and I promise to check it all out and research more. The journey for truth continues to get more interesting and exciting for me as time goes on. God bless you sister.
The only thing I question about what you said previously was that a priest wrote the Bible, only later did you clarify this:
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Pope Damasus I assembled the first list of books of the Bible at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D. He commissioned Saint Jerome to produce a reliable and consistent text by translating the original Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin. This translation became known as the Latin Vulgate Bible and was declared by the Church to be the only authentic and official Bible.
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All he did was translate the text, as the Quran has also been translated. It does not mean that the translator was the writer, just the translator, it is quite different.
Edited by Sarita
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