Quran and Hadith

 Andalus, you are asking:

 What do you want as proof?

 You know very well that the proof is the Quran or the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. or the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. Now here in this case, there is nothing in the Quran about stoning an adulterer. So the matter rests with the practice and the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. Can you show that the practice was continued after the departure of the prophet s.a.w.s.??

 You are totally mistaken about many things. I believe in the Wahi Jali and Wahi Khafi. What do you want to teach me?? Please do.

 I asked you about providing some proof, some reference etc about the practice of stoning after the departure of our prophet s.a.w.s. that was asked in clear terms. And I had admitted my lack of knowledge in that respect. But still you are asking me, "What do you want?" I feel that you do not have anything to prove the practice of stoning an adulterer otherwise you would have posted it by now...

I believe in the powers and abilities of the prophet s.a.w.s. perhaps more than you, as all the ahle Sunnah do it. Now please come forward with your ideas.

minuteman wrote:    Andalus, you are asking:  What do you want as proof?  You know very well that the proof is the Quran or the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. or the words of the prophet s.a.w.s.

Islam derives its rulings based upon the Quran, Sunnah, Ijma (consensus), Qiyaas (analogy). Though I am aware of this, I am also aware that you have access to ample resources on the net, and hadith abound that show rajm was the practice of the Prophet (saw). So knowing you have access to these narratives, I wanted to know specifically what you wanted as proof. Pasting all of the narratives might be a waste of time.

I will make this concise:

1) 'Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "WHen the revelation descended upon the Messenger of Allah (saw), it would affect him and his face would show signs of strain. One day, Allah sent down a revelation to him, and when the Messenger (saw) was relieved of its strain, he said, "Take from me: Allah has made some other way for them [this is in reference to Surah 4:15]. The married with the married, the unmarried with the unmarried. The married gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death, while the unmarried gets a hundred lashes then banishment for a year.""

(recorded by Imam Ahmed 5:317)

This is also narrated with slightly different wording:

".....take from me, take from me. Allah has made some other way for them: the unmarried gets a hundred lashes and banishment for a year, while the married gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death."

At-Tirmidhi stated this is hasan sahih and can be found in the Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tuhfat Al-Ahwadhi, Ibn Majah.

So we have a well authenticated statement from a companion about the Prophet (saw) which connects rajm to a verse in the Quran.

2) The topic of rajm is mass transmitted and considered mutawatir (this means so many people have narrated that it becomes nearly impossible for it to have been made up)

The Sahabah radhiall�hu 'anhum who narrate it from Rasulull�h sallall�hu alaihi wasallam are as follows:-
- �Umar radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates Rasulull�h sallall�hu alaihi wasallam making Rajm which is reported on the authority of Bukhari.
- �Uthmaan ibn �Affaan radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates that Rasulull�h sallall�hu alaihi wasallam made the blood of an adulterer and stoning him halaal. This is reported on the authority of Nasai and Darimi.
- �Ali radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates Rajm being the Sunnah of Rasulull�h sallall�hu alaihi wasallam narrated on the authority of Bukhari and Musnad Ahmad.
- �A�ishah radhiall�hu 'anha narrates the law of an adulterer is stoning which is narrated on the authority of Muslim, Abu Dawood and Hakim.
- �Abdullah ibn Mas�ood radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the permissibility of the blood of an adulterer which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim.
- Abu Umamah ibn Sahl radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the stoning of Ma�iz radhiall�hu 'anhu which is reported by �Abdur Razzaq.
- Anas ibnu Malik radhiall�hu 'anhu reports the permissibility of the blood of an adulterer which is reported on the authority of Tabrani as is mentioned in Majma�uz Zawaaid. He also reports Rasulull�h sallall�hu alaihi wasallam, Abu Bakr radhiall�hu 'anhu and �Umar radhiall�hu 'anhu stoning a person which is reported by Abu Ya�laa as is mentioned in Majma� and Matalib- ul-�Aliyah.
- Jabir ibn �Abdullah radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the incident of Ma�iz which is reported by Bukhari. He also narrates the incident of the stoning of the Gamidi lady which is reported by Hakim.. He also reports the stoning of a person which is reported by Abu Dawood.
- �Abdullah ibn Abi Aufaa radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates Rasulull�h sallall�hu alaihi wasallam stoning someone which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim.
- Abu Hurairah radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the incident of the stoning of Ma�iz radhiall�hu 'anhu which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim. He also narrates the incident of �Aseef which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim. He also reports the stoning of an unnamed person which is reported by Tabrani as is mentioned in Majma�.
- �Abdullah ibn �Abbas radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the Khutbah of �Umar radhiall�hu 'anhu wherein he narrates about Rajm which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim.
- �Ubaadah ibn Samit radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the stoning of an adulterer which is reported by Muslim.
- Jabir ibn Samurah reports the stoning of Ma�iz radhiall�hu 'anhu which is reported by Muslim.
- Abu Sa�eed Khudri radhiall�hu 'anhu reports the incident of Ma�iz radhiall�hu 'anhu which is reported by Muslim.
- �Imraan ibnu Husain radhiall�hu 'anhu reports the incident of the stoning of the Ghamidi lady which is reported by Muslim. He also narrates about Rasulull�h sallall�hu alaihi wasallam stoning a person which is reported by Ahmad.
- Buraidah ibnul Husaib radhiall�hu 'anhu reports the incident of Ma�iz radhiall�hu 'anhu which is reported by Muslim. He also reports the stoning of the Gamidi lady which is reported by Muslim.
- Nu�aim ibnu Hazzaal radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the incident of the stoning of Ma�iz which is reported by Abu Dawood.
- Hazzaal Al-Aslami radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the stoning of Ma�iz which is reported by Hakim.
- Nasr ibnu Dahr reports the incident of Ma�iz which is reported by Ahmad and Darimi.
- An unknown Sahabi also reports the incident of Ma�iz which is reported in Majma�uz-Zawaa�id and Musnad Ahmad.
- Abu Barzah radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the incident of Ma�iz which is reported by Ahmad and Tabrani as is mentioned in Majama�uz Zawaaid.
- Al-Lahlaaj radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the stoning of an unnamed person which is reported by Abu Dawood and Ahmad.
- Zaid ibnu Thabit radhiall�hu 'anhu narrates the stoning of an adulterer which is reported by Hakim.
- Ubaiyy ibnu Ka�b narrates the stoning of an adulterer which is reported by Baihaqi and Hakim.
- �Ajmaa radhiall�hu 'anha narrates the stoning of an adulterer which is reported by Hakim and Tabrani as is mentioned in Talkhees.

3) Sirah Salim bin Dhakwan is an early document that has been dated to 70 - 185 H. The document makes reference to a deviant group who opposed a ruling from the Sunnah (saw) of Prophet Muhammad (saw).

The document contains the passage, "they reject stoning when the Messenger of God did stone a man of Aslam and the sunnah was thereby established..".

Given that well known scholars such as Imam Malik ibn Anas who was of the fourth generation relayed the act of rajm from the people of Medina during his time such that the action was still valid, and with the above document, it would be an extremely weal position to say that rajm was not practiced by the first three generations (Imam Malik narrated from them!).

So here I have given three points which provide a strong bases for the acceptance of rajm.

Now here in this case, there is nothing in the Quran about stoning an adulterer. So the matter rests with the practice and the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. Can you show that the practice was continued after the departure of the prophet s.a.w.s.??  You are totally mistaken about many things. I believe in the Wahi Jali and Wahi Khafi. What do you want to teach me?? Please do.  I asked you about providing some proof, some reference etc about the practice of stoning after the departure of our prophet s.a.w.s. that was asked in clear terms. And I had admitted my lack of knowledge in that respect. But still you are asking me, "What do you want?" I feel that you do not have anything to prove the practice of stoning an adulterer otherwise you would have posted it by now... I believe in the powers and abilities of the prophet s.a.w.s. perhaps more than you, as all the ahle Sunnah do it. Now please come forward with your ideas.

I think I have a better view more from the discussion back and forth by the very followers of Islam.

rami,

I understand your arguement that one is not higher than the other.  I guess I still operate from the Mormon belief that Prophets don't always speak the word of God.  They are mortals and fallible, so when in doubt to a Prophet's words, you compare with the words of God.

There's a hadith I like about the Prophet telling a man he cannot beat his wife with anything bigger than a Miswak.... or was it three blades of grass.

I guess, you see my confusions.  Hadiths gathered from different incidents would lead me to believe that stoning is unislamic.  It goes against repentance, mercy and submission.  However, several hadiths prescrib lashing as almost an act of ritual more than a punishment.  Hitting with a Miswak wouldn't hurt....but it could be very embarrassing.

The Quran says to lock away an unrepentant woman.  How can you lock her away if shes dead???

I think in the end...it becomes a matter of prayer and understanding...and risk. 

Its risky to second guess the Lord.  God states many great things to man through all his revelations to all his Prophets.  Of these were 10 very clear statements give to Moses.  I've been pondering these as I've been recovering.  Scholars can only interpret what they have in front of them.  Hadiths are important from many historical and religious standpoints.  But sometimes they lack an all encompassing view of the situation. 

I know of a woman who cheated on her husband and became pregnant while he was in the hospital.  She was flagrant about it. 

I also know many young girls I counselled at the home for troubled youth.  They were not so much fornicators as victims of the older men who abused them.  These girls were used and pressured.  Instead of being beaten themselves, the men who did this to them should be punished and mercy to the victim.

I guess sometimes, its hard to show that someone who by black and white is a criminal is in reality more of a victim.

The lesson I got from the back and forth debate of those of you in this discussion is really there is no perfect answer.  A just man would way all the situations and determine what is appropriate.  Perhaps for the woman who was stoned by the Prophet... that was the appropriate punishment, whereas, with another it would be 100 lashes with a wet noodle.

Thanks.  As always, informative.