Was Jesus Crucified?

minuteman wrote:    In all the posts above, the meaning of crucifixion has to be understood. People have notions about it. Crucifixion does not mean just putting up on the cross. It means putting upon the cross and dying on the cross. That means death on the cross. Quran clearly denies it. The words of the bible NT also support the idea that Jesus did not die on the cross. His prayer in the garden and so many other factors point to that. Also the ignonimous death on the cross cannot be allowed, being good only for a cursed person.  I personally believe that cross is the enemy of christ, being an instrument of punishment for Jesus the beloved of God. But the christians may be offended. So I would keep my opinion to myself in the future.

   What words or phrases from Bible do you claim deny that Jesus died for us? I'm very curious. The Scriptures make clear His sacrifice for all of us on the cross, on which He spilled His precious blood so that all who may believe in Him and follow Him may gain eternal life in Heaven.

   The death on the cross was indeed ignominous and painful and humiliating. But it is a powerful powerful display of love. Only God (incarnate in Christ) Himself could love us so much that He would allow Himself to be subject to such horrific suffering for all of us.

   Suffering and being faithful to God are not opposites. Jesus' apostles and early Christians were beaten, arrested, beheaded, burned live for testifying to the Truth and living out their faith. Christians in Latin America and other parts of the world today are being arrested, beaten and murdered for having a living faith in Christ, an active faith that means they preach the Gospel and work for peace and oppose injustice and work to help the poor. I have been to El Salvador last summer for 2 weeks and got to work and observe a group working for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in El Salvador. They do prison ministry and outreach with youth on the street as well as are vocal against privatization of water and oppression of the poor. Since August 2006, 2 pastors my friends knew have been gunned down by armed men after church, and a friend in another Christian social justice grioup has been arrested for taking part in a peaceful protest against water privatization. She is being charged with 'terrorism' and risks many years in El Salvadors overcrowded and violent prisons. Her name is Eugenia Chicas.

   My brothers and sisters in Christ El Salvador who are suffering are not offended by the cross but see it as what it is - a symbol of God's love for us. A true love, one that is filled with suffering and pain and is real. Because if you truly love someone, you are ready to suffer for them. That is what Jesus did for us.

   We look up to His cross as we carry our own crosses. Discipleship is not meant to be easy, and although God's love is free in the sense that anyone can turn to Jesus and be saved, it is not cheap. It is not painless or without sacrifice. It was not so for Him and it should not be so for us.

   I thank God for the cross.

   Cristo Vive!
        - Tomasz

This is an interesting topic.  The belief Christ was crucified is based on the testimony of the church.  The church has always believed this on the testimony of the first believers in a continual chain until the Lord returns.  I realized that there were sects that said he was not cruficied, he was two people, a similaricam too his place, no it was Judas.  Everyone loves a good conspiracy story.  The bottom line Jesus the Lord has always been source of controversy. 

many questions have risen whether Jesus was crucified.. There are ancient creeds which state he was. The people who state Jesus was crucified did not even believe in him.

 

Josephus

About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ.

Josephus does not tell us whether he believed Jesus was the Christ. He just stated he was the Christ.

When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified,

Here is where Jospehus states Jesus was crucified.

those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold,

And here he states that Jesus was resurrected!

along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.^[36]

^{There were also ancient Roman creeds by:}

^{Tacitus - he doesnt mention they way of his death, but he specifically mentions Jesus and when you read what he wrote you will see he hated us and blamed us for the things that were going on at that time.}

^{and others such as, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger,}

^{Thallus, Julius Africanus, Lucian and Celus who hated Christians and Jesus.}

^{There there is Jewish records from the Talmund Sanhedrin}

On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.^[61]

This is the Jews admitting they "hung" him. Obviously he was hung on the cross.

"Josephus

About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ.

Josephus does not tell us whether he believed Jesus was the Christ. He just stated he was the Christ.

When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified,

Here is where Jospehus states Jesus was crucified.

those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold,

And here he states that Jesus was resurrected!

along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.^[36]"

The so-called "Testimonium Flavianum" is nothing more than a simple Christian forgery from the 3rd century AD.  When one studies the Testimonium, obvious questions arise.  For instance, why would Josephus, a Jew, have said that Jesus performed "paradoxical feats" or that "he appeared to [his followers] on the third day" or that "he was the Christ"?  If Josephus said that Jesus "was the Christ," would it not mean that he actually believed it?  If he said that he appeared alive on the third day, would it not mean he believed that as well?  But why would he?  Why would he regard two, that's right two, men as the Messiah?  Who was the second man, you ask?  It was Vespasian.  Josephus wrote in "Wars of the Jews" the following:

"But now, what did elevate them [the Jews] in undertaking this war was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, 'about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth.'  The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular; and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination.  Now, this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea." (Book 6, Chapter 6, v. 4)

Notice that Josephus refers to "an ambiguous oracle" referring to "one from their country" who would become ruler of the world.  This certainly sounds like a reference to the Messiah.  Josephus believed that Vespasian fulfilled this prophecy, and thus was the Messiah.  Obviously, both Jesus and Vespasian could not have been the Messiah. 

Another important fact to take note of is the complete absence of the Testimonium in any of the writings of Christian historians, until Eusebius, a 3rd century historian.  Origen, a 2nd century historian, makes no mention of Josephus' testimony regarding Jesus.  He does refer to Josephus' rendition of the execution of James, the brother of Jesus, but makes no reference to the "Testimonium Flavianum."  Now why would he have done that? 

Third, let us say that Josephus' account of Jesus is genuine.  Let us also say that he is a reliable source of the events of that time.  Therefore, every event which had occurred in that time period, from the reign of Herod the Great to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and Vespasian's ascension to power, would be found in Josephus' account.  What other major events took place in that time period?  The Gospel of Matthew claims that during the reign of Herod the Great, all male children were ordered to be slaughtered, much like the slaughter of all male children in Egypt.  This was done because Herod feared the arrival of the Messiah, who could potentially overthrow him.  The Gospel states the following:

"16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18"A voice is heard in Ramah,       weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."" (2:16-18)

If this so-called "Massacre of the Innocents" had truly occurred, certainly Josephus would have mentioned it in his historical works, especially since it involved many Jewish children.  Unfortunately, no such account exists in any of Josephus' works.  Why is this so?  Josephus mentioned Pharaoh's orders to massacre all male children among the Jews, so it would have made sense that he also mention Herod's similar crime.  Concerning Pharaoh's orders, Josephus writes:

"Which thing was so feared by the king, that, according to this man's opinion, he commanded that they should cast every male child, which was born to the Israelites, into the river, and destroy it;" ("Antiquities of the Jews," Book 2, Chapter 9, v. 2)

Can anyone find a similar account involving Herod and the children of Bethelem and the surrounding areas? 

Clearly, the Christian use of Josephus to confirm their beliefs is not without controversy and contradiction.  Upon careful study of Josephus' works, we find no real confirmation. 

The use of Tacitus is also not without controversy.  I will comment on this later, inshaAllah.