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Was Jesus Crucified?
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lost_puppy View Drop Down
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Points: 5 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lost_puppy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2007 at 8:41am

I am fascinated that my original thread has become a debate on whether or not Jesus was crucified.  It may have been the title of the thread, but my original point was that whilst it is accepted by muslims as perfectly acceptable to state that Jesus was not crucified, no-one can make any statement doubting the efficacy of the 'Prophet' Mohammed's true connection with God without Jihad being declared against him.
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islamispeace View Drop Down
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Originally posted by lost_puppy lost_puppy wrote:

I am fascinated that my original thread has become a debate on whether or not Jesus was crucified.  It may have been the title of the thread, but my original point was that whilst it is accepted by muslims as perfectly acceptable to state that Jesus was not crucified, no-one can make any statement doubting the efficacy of the 'Prophet' Mohammed's true connection with God without Jihad being declared against him.



It was only a matter of time that the topic would be whether Jesus was crucified or not.  I disagree with you that doubting the blessed Muhammad's prophetic mission can automatically result in criticism from Muslims.  You can believe what you want.  It makes no difference to me.  Of course, as a Muslim, it is my duty to share the message of Islam with you and every other person.  But what you believe in the end is between you and God.  I cannot force my views on you, but I can express my views as long as they are decent and respectful.  In the same way, you can say "I don't believe that Muhammad was a prophet" and not be the target of my criticism.  Of course, I would say you are wrong, but I would not say more than that.  However, if you take the path of actually insulting the Prophet, that is when I will declare "intellectual war" and pummel you with intellectual criticism. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Originally posted by buddyman buddyman wrote:

Greetings Buddyman.

1) I have given you rational, solid reasons to object based upon "critical thinking". If one must trash reason and use blind faith to believe, then one must use "excuses" to maintain their belief, which is what you have given since your time on this forum.

2) I never stated anything about the NT nor the topic of textual criticism of the bible. The passages of Josephus that you provided are labeled by the majority of mainstream scholars as "products of interpolation". That is a fact. Perhaps you do not see the absurdity in your request that I must accept these writings as fact, but I will give you an analogy of just how absurd your notion is:

In the court of law, the defendent and his attorney discover that the prosecuter is using evidence that has been tampered with. When they approach the prosecuter about this discovery, the prosectuer shrugs his shoulders and exclaims that the evidence is not a problem, after all, it was a witness of the prosecuter that did the tampering. No problem!

 

It's kind of interesting how you think our scriptures are tampered with or anything having to prove you wrong is tampered with.

You are digressing, as there is no discussion on textual criticism of the bible in this thread.

What is even more compelling is that I have shown you why I rejected your evidences, none of which includes "because they prove me wrong". Why is it that even in the face of rational reasoning, you simply appeal to your erroneous evidences as me being "difficult". Buddyman, no serious scholar accepts Josephus concerning Jesus as a word for word witness of the author. The lack of reply conerning my objections is a telling indication that your belief in your faith is based upon blind faith.

 

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Do you think the Quran was tampered with?

This is an irrelevant question, but for the sake of argument, no. 

 

Of course not!..lol! I wonder why the Surat would tell Muslims to read the OT and NT then...hmm.
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buddyman View Drop Down
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Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Originally posted by lost_puppy lost_puppy wrote:

I am fascinated that my original thread has become a debate on whether or not Jesus was crucified.  It may have been the title of the thread, but my original point was that whilst it is accepted by muslims as perfectly acceptable to state that Jesus was not crucified, no-one can make any statement doubting the efficacy of the 'Prophet' Mohammed's true connection with God without Jihad being declared against him.



It was only a matter of time that the topic would be whether Jesus was crucified or not.  I disagree with you that doubting the blessed Muhammad's prophetic mission can automatically result in criticism from Muslims.  You can believe what you want.  It makes no difference to me.  Of course, as a Muslim, it is my duty to share the message of Islam with you and every other person.  But what you believe in the end is between you and God.  I cannot force my views on you, but I can express my views as long as they are decent and respectful.  In the same way, you can say "I don't believe that Muhammad was a prophet" and not be the target of my criticism.  Of course, I would say you are wrong, but I would not say more than that.  However, if you take the path of actually insulting the Prophet, that is when I will declare "intellectual war" and pummel you with intellectual criticism. 

 

You know its very easy to prove a Christian wrong. All you have to do is let the Gospel be preached to the entire world. If Jesus doesn't come, then we were wrong..
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islamispeace View Drop Down
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"You know its very easy to prove a Christian wrong. All you have to do is let the Gospel be preached to the entire world. If Jesus doesn't come, then we were wrong.."

I have already proven you wrong several times. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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buddyman View Drop Down
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Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

"You know its very easy to prove a Christian wrong. All you have to do is let the Gospel be preached to the entire world. If Jesus doesn't come, then we were wrong.."

I have already proven you wrong several times. 

 

All yo uhave proven is that you haven't read the Bible. You have never proven me wrong.

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islamispeace View Drop Down
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"All yo uhave proven is that you haven't read the Bible. You have never proven me wrong."

I proved you wrong about your assertion on crucifixion in the Roman Empire, your claims regarding Josephus and the Testimonium Flavianum, and your claims about specific Bible verses which allegedly alluded to Jesus' divinity.  Did I forget anything?
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Andalus View Drop Down
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Points: 1187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by buddyman buddyman wrote:

Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Originally posted by buddyman buddyman wrote:

Greetings Buddyman.

1) I have given you rational, solid reasons to object based upon "critical thinking". If one must trash reason and use blind faith to believe, then one must use "excuses" to maintain their belief, which is what you have given since your time on this forum.

2) I never stated anything about the NT nor the topic of textual criticism of the bible. The passages of Josephus that you provided are labeled by the majority of mainstream scholars as "products of interpolation". That is a fact. Perhaps you do not see the absurdity in your request that I must accept these writings as fact, but I will give you an analogy of just how absurd your notion is:

In the court of law, the defendent and his attorney discover that the prosecuter is using evidence that has been tampered with. When they approach the prosecuter about this discovery, the prosectuer shrugs his shoulders and exclaims that the evidence is not a problem, after all, it was a witness of the prosecuter that did the tampering. No problem!

 

It's kind of interesting how you think our scriptures are tampered with or anything having to prove you wrong is tampered with.

You are digressing, as there is no discussion on textual criticism of the bible in this thread.

What is even more compelling is that I have shown you why I rejected your evidences, none of which includes "because they prove me wrong". Why is it that even in the face of rational reasoning, you simply appeal to your erroneous evidences as me being "difficult". Buddyman, no serious scholar accepts Josephus concerning Jesus as a word for word witness of the author. The lack of reply conerning my objections is a telling indication that your belief in your faith is based upon blind faith.

 

Quote

Do you think the Quran was tampered with?

This is an irrelevant question, but for the sake of argument, no. 

 

Of course not!..lol! I wonder why the Surat would tell Muslims to read the OT and NT then...hmm.

I am not sure since I am wondering now also. I am wondering which surah commands Muslims to read the OT and NT, and which version of the OT and the NT we are supposed to study (even the holy ghost was confused, as you have one tradition of the OT while the ghost man referred to another tradition of the OT in the NT). I am also wondering how, if true concerning your claim about the Quran, would reading the bible even remotely imply that there is an error in the Quran. It is a "non sequitur" fallacy.

 

As usual you have offered nothing helpful, or useful to substantiate your claims, or even of any benefit to this discussion.

 



Edited by Andalus
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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