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Topic ClosedLal Masjid Massacre

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syed123 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2007 at 8:37pm

The Lal Masjid battle is part of the wider civil war within the Islamic world waged by totalitarian forces that seek redemption through violence.

Their cancerous radicalism pits Muslims against Muslims, and the world at large. It is only peripherally directed against the excesses of the corrupt ruling establishment, or inspired by issues of justice and equity.

Note that the Lal Masjid ideologues -- and others of their ilk -- do not rouse their followers to action on matters of poverty, unemployment, poor access to justice, lack of educational opportunities, corruption within the army and bureaucracy, or the sufferings of peasants and workers.

Instead their actions are concentrated entirely on improving morality -- meaning kidnapping prostitutes and destroying video stores. They did not consider as immoral such things as exploiting workers, cheating customers, bribing officials, beating their wives, not paying taxes, or breaking traffic rules. Their interpretation of religion leads to bizarre failures in logic, moral reasoning, and appreciation of human life.

The crimes of mullahs, because they are committed in the name of Islam, go unpunished today. The situation in Pakistan's tribal areas is dire and deteriorating.

Inspired by the fiery rhetoric from mosques, fanatics murder doctors and health workers administering polio shots. They blow up  girls schools, kill barbers who shave beards.

 No one is caught or punished.

First, hate-preaching mullahs must be stopped. The government should announce that any citizen who hears such sermons should record them, and lodge an official charge that will be taken seriously. In the tribal areas, the dozens of currently operating illegal FM radio stations should be closed down using force if necessary. Run by mullahs bitterly hostile to each other on doctrinal or personal grounds, they incite bitter tribal and sectarian wars.

Second, the government must not minimise the danger posed by madrasas. It is not just their gun-toting militants, but the climate of intolerance they create in society. Where and when necessary, and after sufficient warning, they must be shut down.

Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy is chairman and professor at the Department of Physics, Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2007 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by syed123 syed123 wrote:

With regards to the post by Sign*Reader HEADLINE NEWS FOR MUSHITES:
63pc Pakistanis want Musharraf to go

 
It must also be mentioned that the same poll

 showed 32 percent of Pakistanis believed Bhutto was the best leader to handle the problems, followed by Musharraf with 27 percent, reversing the positions in the last poll conducted in February/March.

The two main leaders of Pakistan's Islamist parties only garnered seven percent between them

Benazir Bhutto is the same corrupt person who amassed a huge personal fortune and has build a massive castle like mansion in U.K.Analysing the results sadly exposes the paucity of choices,  and the lack of genuine leadership in Pakistan. 

Even after the Lal masjid incident the pakistani public still trusts and believes in Gen Pervez Musharraf more than the religious right wing fanatics.        


Nowhere I have rooted for any religious party or any people for that matter.

The point of contention is rule of law which is not making any headway through the density I am up against!!
If everybody is given a playing field and the people may like to elect a dog catcher so be it! May be that is what the nation deserves or needs cuz there are might be too many rabid K9 population need be brought under control before they bite more folks and make them sick or what have you!
My concern is only humanitarian and what is lawful to protect the weak; you want to fight for the fat cats in this IC!

I don't know you are old enough to know that these lawless armed thugs who have been massacring the so called free people since the get go! how old are you anyways? remember the early 50s!
 I hope you are not one of those who tell their old man how to sleep! You know what I mean!
So far BB is concerned, the following quarry was posted on page # 7 for you  & you have ignored:
 -- no shortage of pickpockets and criminals around Kaaba, this PR Umrah is such a farce that amounts to sacrilege.
You know so much about this dog, how was his Umrah around other rabid canine ( criminally charged by Paki gov't) in Dubai?
After all what brought him down to this low suddenly?
Is he is done with your Don/Peer in London?
What gives? Why did he go her way knowing fully well she is under indictment? Would it happen in lawful state?
The people who were blown away by your favorite's executioners were not a political party and were not running for the office so quit comparing apples with oranges!
You live and enjoy in the US cuz of the civil rights laws and don't ever forget some body with religious background fought for those; otherwise people like you would be part of the same mess we discussing.
We know how big a thief was Benazir Bhutto and her hubby but how about Mush's Billions; you talked about his boy's MBA as if he is the first one around
 


Edited by Sign*Reader
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2007 at 10:19pm

If you want Hoodbhoy's opinion about Mush so you have it ! Just few months before Red Mosque!

Musharraf's Coup � Seven Years Later

By Pervez Hoodbhoy

Some had feared - while others had hoped - that General Pervez Musharraf's coup of October 12, 1999, would bring the revolution of Kemal Ataturk to a Pakistan and wrest the country from the iron grip of mullahs. But years later a definitive truth has emerged. Like the other insecure governments before it, both military and civilian, the present regime also has a single point agenda - to stay in power at all costs. It therefore does whatever it must and Pakistan falls further from any prospect of acquiring modern values, and of building and strengthening democratic institutions.

The requirements for survival of the present regime are clear: on the one hand the Army leadership knows that its critical dependence upon the West requires that it be perceived abroad as a liberal regime pitted against radical Islamists. But, on the other hand, in actual fact, to preserve and extend its grip on power, it must preserve the status quo.

The staged conflicts between General Musharraf and the mullahs are therefore a regular part of Pakistani politics. This September, nearly seven years later, the religious parties needed no demonstration of muscle power for winning two major victories in less than a fortnight; just a few noisy threats sufficed. From experience they knew that the Pakistan Army and its sagacious leader - of "enlightened moderation" fame - would stick to their predictable pattern of dealing with Islamists. In a nutshell: provoke a fight, get the excitement going, let diplomatic missions in Islamabad prepare their briefs and CNN and BBC get their clips - and then beat a retreat. At the end of it all the mullahs would get what they want, but so would the General.

Examples abound. On 21st April 2000, General Musharraf announced a new administrative procedure for registration of cases under the Blasphemy Law. This law, under which the minimum penalty is death, has frequently been used to harass personal and political opponents. To reduce such occurrences, Musharraf's modified procedure would have required the local district magistrate's approval for registration of a blasphemy case. It would have been an improvement, albeit a modest one. But 25 days later - on the 16th of May 2000 - under the watchful glare of the mullahs, Musharraf hastily climbed down: "As it was the unanimous demand of the ulema, mashaikh and the people, therefore, I have decided to do away with the procedural change in the registration of FIR under the Blasphemy Law".

Another example. In October 2004, as a new system for issuing machine readable passports was being installed, Musharraf's government declared that henceforth it would not be necessary for passport holders to specify their religion. Expectedly this was denounced by the Islamic parties as a grand conspiracy aimed at secularizing Pakistan and destroying its Islamic character. But even before the mullahs actually took to the streets, the government lost nerve and the volte-face was announced on 24 March, 2005. Information Minister Sheikh Rashid said the decision to revive the religion column was made else, "Qadianis and apostates would be able to pose as Muslims and perform pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia".

But even these climb downs - significant as they are - are less dramatic than the astonishing recent retreat over reforming the Hudood Ordinance, a grotesque imposition of General Zia-ul-Haq's government unparalleled both for its cruelty and irrationality. Enacted into the law in 1979, it was conceived as part of a more comprehensive process for converting Pakistan into a theocracy governed by Sharia laws. These laws prescribe death by stoning for married Muslims who are found guilty of extra-marital sex (for unmarried couples or non-Muslims, the penalty is 100 lashes). The law is exact in stating how the death penalty is to be administered: "Such of the witnesses who deposed against the convict as may be available shall start stoning him and, while stoning is being carried on, he may be shot dead, whereupon stoning and shooting shall be stopped".

Rape is still more problematic. A woman who fails to prove that she has been raped is automatically charged with fornication and adultery. Under the Hudood Law, she is considered guilty unless she can prove her innocence. Proof of innocence requires that the rape victim must produce "at least four Muslim adult male witnesses, about whom the Court is satisfied" who saw the actual act of penetration. Inability to do so may result in her being jailed, or perhaps even sentenced to death for adultery.

President and Chief of Army Staff General Musharraf, and his Citibank Prime Minister, Shaukat Aziz, proposed amending the Hudood Ordinance. They sent a draft for parliamentary discussion in early September, 2006. As expected, it outraged the fundamentalists of the MMA, the main Islamic parliamentary opposition. MMA members tore up copies of the proposed amendments on the floor of the National Assembly and threatened to resign en masse. The government cowered abjectly and withdrew.

Musharraf's government has proved no more enlightened, or more moderate or more resolute and behaved no differently from the more than half a dozen civilian administrations, including two terms of Benazir Bhutto as Prime Minister and several "technocrat" regimes. None made a serious effort to confront or reform these laws.

But the pattern is broader then deference to the mullahs. General Musharraf has been willing to use the iron fist in other circumstances. Two examples stand out: Waziristan and Balochistan. Each offers instruction.

In 2002, presumably on Washington's instructions, the Pakistan Army established military bases in South Waziristan which had become a refuge for Taliban and Al Qaeda fleeing Afghanistan. It unleashed artillery and US-supplied Cobra gunships. By 2005 heavy fighting had spread to North Waziristan and the army was bogged down.

The generals, safely removed from combat areas, and busy in building their personal financial empires, ascribed the resistance to "a few hundred foreign militants and terrorists". But the Army was taking losses (how serious is suggested by the fact that casualty figures were not revealed), soldiers rarely ventured out from their forts, morale collapsed as junior officers wondered why they were being asked to attack their ideological comrades - the Taliban - at American instructions. Reportedly, local clerics refused to conduct funeral prayers for soldiers killed in action.

In 2004, the army made peace with the militants in South Waziristan. It conceded the territory to them, which had made the militants immensely stronger. A similar "peace treaty" had been signed on 1 September 2006 in the town of Miramshah, in North Waziristan, now firmly in the grip of the Pakistani Taliban.

The Miramshah treaty met all demands made by the militants: the release of all jailed militants; dismantling of army checkpoints; return of seized weapons and vehicles; the right of the Taliban to display weapons (except heavy weapons); and residence rights for fellow fighters from other Islamic countries. As for "foreign militants" who Musharraf had blamed exclusively for the resistance, the militants were nonchalant: we will let you know if we find any! The financial compensation demanded by the Taliban for loss of property and life has not been revealed, but some officials have remarked that it is "astronomical". In turn they promised to cease their attacks on civil and military installations, and give the army a safe passage out.

While the army has extricated itself, the locals have been left to pay the price. The militants have closed girl's schools and are enforcing harsh Sharia laws in all of Waziristan, both North and South. Barbers have been told "you shave, you die". Taliban vigilante groups patrol the streets of Miramshah. They check such things as the length of beards, whether the "shalwars" are worn at an appropriate height above the ankles, and attendance of individuals in the mosques.

And then there is Balochistan. Eight years ago when the army seized power, there was no visible separatist movement in Balochistan, which makes nearly 44% of Pakistan's land mass and is the repository of its gas and oil. Now there is a full blown insurgency built upon Baloch grievances, most of which arise from a perception of being ruled from Islamabad and of being denied a fair share of the benefits of the natural resources extracted from their land.

The army has spurned negotiations. Force is the only answer: "They won't know what hit them", boasted Musharraf, after threatening to crush the insurgency. The Army has used everything it can, including its American supplied F-16 jet fighters. The crisis worsened when the charismatic 80-year old Baloch chieftain and former governor of Balochistan, Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti, was killed by army bombs. Musharraf outraged the Baloch by calling it "a great victory". Reconciliation in Balochistan now seems, at best, a distant dream.

Musharraf and his generals are determined to stay in power. They will protect the source of their power - the army. They will accommodate those they must - the Americans. They will pander to the mullahs. They will crush those who threaten their power and privilege, and ignore the rest. No price is too high for them. They are the reason Pakistan fails.

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2007 at 11:08pm

The above post by Sign *Reader only validates my point that the religious fanatics and  mullahs in concert with either the Army and the corrupt politicians are pushing Pakistan to the brink of total destruction and failure.

If any intelligent individual carefully analyses the above post it will be clear to him that the Mullahs and religious fanatics have time and again hobnobbied with either the army generals(pervez musharraf included) or the politicians and used the general populace to further their illogical religious and political agenda.

This is precisely the reason why these politico- religious fanatics who have hijacked Islam need to be confronted and isolated before the sad story of Pakistan is repeated in every muslim country around the world.

Inspite of all his policy gaffes the harsh  reality is    that          Pakistan at this present time has no real Viable alternative to Gen Pervez Musharaff .

The Bhuttos,Sharifs and the Mullahs are hand in glove with each other and  have systematically impoverished pakistan in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

 

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 12:29am

The Lal Masjid battle is part of the wider civil war within the Islamic world waged by totalitarian forces that seek redemption through violence.

Their cancerous radicalism pits Muslims against Muslims, and the world at large. It is only peripherally directed against the excesses of the corrupt ruling establishment, or inspired by issues of justice and equity.

I see Dr's first para somewhat contradicts with second para!


Note that the Lal Masjid ideologues -- and others of their ilk -- do not rouse their followers to action on matters of poverty, unemployment, poor access to justice, lack of educational opportunities, corruption within the army and bureaucracy, or the sufferings of peasants and workers.

The Dr sounds like a knucklehead, he is  generalizing  and lumping everything  in one bucket. 

Why would the Hafsa U feed and house 4000+ students, if the gov't had same law like  your adopted country to have a state funded school system --the fact is that Paki gov't essentially destroyed the school system to keep people poor and bare feet so the power base of the praetorians could be preserved. Dr's got most of his education in the US , he should know better!

THe Chief Justice' fiasco simply nullifies  what Dr Hoodbhoy trying to postulate!

Instead their actions are concentrated entirely on improving morality -- meaning kidnapping prostitutes and destroying video stores. They did not consider as immoral such things as exploiting workers, cheating customers, bribing officials, beating their wives, not paying taxes, or breaking traffic rules. Their interpretation of religion leads to bizarre failures in logic, moral reasoning, and appreciation of human life.


The crimes of mullahs, because they are committed in the name of Islam, go unpunished today. The situation in Pakistan's tribal areas is dire and deteriorating.

Inspired by the fiery rhetoric from mosques, fanatics murder doctors and health workers administering polio shots. They blow up  girls schools, kill barbers who shave beards.

 No one is caught or punished.


First, hate-preaching mullahs must be stopped. The government should announce that any citizen who hears such sermons should record them, and lodge an official charge that will be taken seriously. In the tribal areas, the dozens of currently operating illegal FM radio stations should be closed down using force if necessary. Run by mullahs bitterly hostile to each other on doctrinal or personal grounds, they incite bitter tribal and sectarian wars.

Second, the government must not minimise the danger posed by madrasas. It is not just their gun-toting militants, but the climate of intolerance they create in society. Where and when necessary, and after sufficient warning, they must be shut down.

Again this lumping of diverse issue sis meaningless, I think DR. being from Karachi has a bias against the people he is talking about! It is broad brush statement like Mush makes usually!
He is totally a hypocrite if compare with last years article where Mush/army  is using the religious political parties as means to justify  their ends! I don't see him credible cuz he is towing Mush's line now like a fearful sycophant.
The MQM and Karachi business community would bribe the current army thugs even if the US cuts the dole off. A tribal civil war may be in offing and that is what they need.
Don't you know that Mush's Kemalist model is crumbling in Turkey! It is the Islamic party that has delivered the economic miracle where the secular parties failed!

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 12:41am
Originally posted by syed123 syed123 wrote:

T


Inspite of all his policy gaffes the harsh  reality is    that          Pakistan at this present time has no real Viable alternative to Gen Pervez Musharaff .

The Bhuttos,Sharifs and the Mullahs are hand in glove with each other and  have systematically impoverished pakistan in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

  


Mush is in bed with Bhutto now what do you say?
You keep ignoring the facts!
You still haven't come clean with Mush's loot in Billions and want him to take more.
Why don't you say who ever wins in a fair election should rule?
What is your hangup?
Why are you beating about the bush?
And there should be an investigation about the massacre!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 3:41am

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Paa Sign*Reader, all this time, I had sincerely taken you to be a kind man and also just a bit on our side. I had been pleading with you, for mercy for my newfound Morshed, in earnest. But, you haven�t given even a dime for all the proofs, of his innocence, I put before you.

 

And, you keep throwing such sharp, huge solid knives at him?

Brother (don�t take me seriously, don�t really feel like addressing you as one! but never mind)

Can't just show a bit of kindness, for a person who has gotr his sooee stuck in the � it�s only the religious fanatics and mullahs and Gaad forgot to make another supa man like Mush� like in some wornout plastic LP track?

 

Just not even a little bit?

 

the Army and the corrupt politicians are pushing Pakistan to the brink of total destruction and failure.

I told you he was the single most innocent person I have known in all my years. He is speaking as if the politician (or anyone else for that matter in the whole country) had any say, whatsoever, in a one man misrule!

If any intelligent individual

See, who else could point out to himself in just four simple words?

carefully analyses

The single hardest task for anyone other than my Morshed!

to further their illogical religious and political agenda.

It would turn into the most logical and noble agenda the day it begins to suit the Pentagon.

Inspite of all his policy gaffes the harsh reality is that Pakistan at this present time has no real Viable alternative to Gen Pervez Musharaff.

I told you, of his utter innocence. Who else would copy n paste all the official State Department spin with such conviction and, seemingly, faith?

Even after the Lal masjid incident the pakistani public still trusts and believes in Gen Pervez Musharraf more than the religious right wing fanatics.

Absolutely!

Every single word my Morshed says is one hundred percent authentic and fully licenced copy of the US official material. 

 

NOTE FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAVE SENT PMs ABOUT MY MORSHED'S SITE

First of all, be very respectfull. You are lucky that I have even read your PMs let alone ever replying to them.

 

What's the use pointing out that he has placed the US flag as No 1 and the Kaaba just a mere runner up? Specially, when el Morshed has told us all, openly, in his earlier post that this flag gave him the freedom, it gave him the economy, it gave him the position he has come to hold.

 

He had just forgot to mention that, above all, it also gave him a magical Key-Board that does all the thinking for him.

 

What would you do if some flag gave you everything in your life? Not just work a bit for it? Specially if takes just copying and pasting some lines straight from the media?

 

Now, if you don't stop laughing at me like that, I will not reply to any of your PMs, ever.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 7:19am

With respect to the slanderous posts being made against me, i would like to clarify that in my Blog the position of the american flag and the kaabah has nothing to do with the importance of each of those.

I had placed the flag on the occassion of the independence day and havent had time to update my blog and will do so in due time.The remark about the positioning of the flag and the holy kabah by some people  is a cheap shot being taken at me and exposes the poverty of their intellect.

I once again appeal to people like SASHA KHANZADEH to desist from slandering me personally and in the due process expose the shallowness of their  own personalities.

 

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