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Does God beget ?

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rami View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 6:27pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Surely God is more incomprehensible and more wonderful than anything He created!

What is in creation he chose to share with us therefor it is in the realms of our understanding.

Do we not have apparent paradoxes in God's creation?

Complexity is not a sign of the trinity, you would make a better argument stating the impossible as sign of 3 equaling one.

How about the wave-particle duality in physics, or the dual states in quantum mechanics described by Schrodinger's cat?

By that principle this is also evidence for Abu yazid al bistami's [a muslim saint] 24000 expansions in which he was witnessed appearing in 24000 different places at the same time [ many other similar miricales by differant saints have also been reported] does that make any one of the 24000 different from him or prove the existance of a trinity, does this imply that there could be more than a trinity but a 24000inity.

Paradoxes are what ever you see in them they are not explicit arguments for anything.

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Jocko View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jocko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 7:32pm

 

 What is in creation he chose to share with us therefor it is in the realms of our understanding.

   Just because God created things for us to enjoy does not necessarily mean that we can fully comprehend them. He doesn't forbid us to try. But His creation prepared for our existence does not mean He is obligated to see that we have no sense of mystery about it.

Complexity is not a sign of the trinity, you would make a better argument stating the impossible as sign of 3 equaling one.

  I didn't see where JasperStone said "complexity" per se was a aspect of the Trinity.

  I see that he made the case that even in creation there are things which we cannot fully explain. I see you counter by saying that God must expect us to comprehend it if He created it for our sharing.

  I contribute that that is not necessarily so. We can enjoy and derive benefit from things which are mysterious to us. Most of our curiosity is based on a desire to munipulate the laws of nature to make life easier for ourselves in some way.

  Man suffers for the scarcity of things. He labors under the curse that devours the earth because of the rebellion of Satan and of man. Because of the hard labor and scarcity of resources man is ever curious how to control the forces of nature to lesson his plight of labor and suffering.

 The inventions like the light bulb, the hydro electric dam, the telephone, the TV, the computer, even space flight are all aimed at improving our suffering condition under the curse of fall of man.

  Under the full kingdom of God with its plentitude, justice, love, harmony, and pervading peace, I am not sure how the curiousity of mankind will react to abundant provision of all things needed.

   Anyway, the saved will have eternity to find out.   
   

   



Edited by Jocko
I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
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JasperStone View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JasperStone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 8:19pm
Well said Jocko.

I am not saying that paradoxes in creation specifically prove the Trinity, though they do support that three-one is not so outlandish after all. I am countering the idea that God must fit within our framework of understanding. Many things in His creation do not; how much less Himself.

But He has made it simple to experience Him (hence the title of another thread). The ocean is deep and unfathomable but very easy to experience.

Understand or not, call the Son, the Spirit will come, and bring to you the Father.


Edited by JasperStone
For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, we shall be saved in His life, having been reconciled. (Rom 5:10)
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 9:06pm

ok I give up....

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Mauri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mauri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

I cannot comprehend "three-one"

That is like saying "square circles"

Based upon man's comprehension, a bumblebee cannot fly.

Consider: Whatever you imagine, Allah is Different from that.

--Dhun Nun Al-Misri

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mauri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by The Moor The Moor wrote:

The Qur'an and Sunnah are clear that Allah does not sire children. The rational proof that God does not beget or sire offspring lies in the fact that God is Indivisible--that is, God is not subject to division and therefore, God is not a body.  If God were a "father," it would mean that an alleged "part" of God would have divided/separated and entered the womb of a consort/mother. 

 

This we can see is logically impossible.  God (Allah) has always existed.  Allah is not subject to time and is not subject to change.  (Change occurs in time and has to have a start--that which has a start cannot be the Eternal God.)  Separation and division cannot exist outside of time. They are necessarily created, and God is not created and does not have created attributes. 

 

Furthermore, if God were a father, it would mean that God is a body of some sort.  God, however, is not a body (neither a material nor a spiritual body).  For if God were a body, then God would be dependent upon the dimension of space (a body by its nature needs a certain amount of space to exist--a body cannot exist independent of space). God, however, is without a beginning and existed before the creation of space.  God is not dependent upon anything.  From the above, it should be clear that God does not change, God is Free-of-Need, and God is not a body, and therefore, "fatherhood" cannot be ascribed to God, for fatherhood is a total contradiction to Eternality and the status of Godhood.

 

And Allah knows best.

If you agree that Hippocrates is the father of medicine, what do you think he sired?  And, with whom? ;)

What alleged "part" of Hippocrates divided/separated and entered the womb of a consort/mother?

Do you also reject the Old Testament verse that says God breathed (Gen.2:7) because, according to you, that would mean he needed a body with lungs or gills, etc.?

What about the Old Testament verses that refer to God's hand, finger, face, etc.?  Do you think they are wrong, too?



Edited by Mauri
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2007 at 9:16am
Biblical Scholars would say those [hand, finger, face] are all figurative not literal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mauri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2007 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Biblical Scholars would say those [hand, finger, face] are all figurative not literal.

Yes.
Would you agree that calling Hippocrates "the father of medicine" is also figurative?

If the OT and even contemporary man can express true concepts figuratively, what prevents John 3:16 from being figurative?

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