IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - the last Caliph  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

the last Caliph

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Ali Zaki View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: the last Caliph
    Posted: 05 July 2005 at 5:37am
So is someone is appointed by the Holy Messenger (a.s.) as your Mowali, then you can ignore him but if the people elect a Caliph then he must be obeyed? That sounds like the logic of George Bush not Islam.
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
Back to Top
Ayubi1187 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 06 December 2001
Location: Somalia
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ayubi1187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2005 at 9:03am
Even the prophets(saw) words shows that its not about caliphat because no where is the word calip mentioned. It is only shia who interpret the word mowali to mean caliph.
Back to Top
Ayubi1187 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 06 December 2001
Location: Somalia
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ayubi1187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2005 at 8:56am
No wonder nothing is getting your head. The event of ghadir and khum is historical fact and no one is discrediting it. The problem with you is you dont want to read the context which explainers why he said this. The prophet was not making announcement of his successor it was in regard to certain unjustified complaints against Ali(ra) read the words in its context.
Back to Top
Ali Zaki View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2005 at 7:15am

" he is your master after me"

Are you reading what you are posting?

This hadith is NOT the third time, it is only part of it. I am still waiting for your attempt to discredit the famous even of Ghadir Khum (or do you deny that it happened all together).

By the way, Imam Ali (a.s.) on many, many occassions mentions his appointment by the Prophet at Ghadir, however, all of these occassions are conviently missing from the collections that our Sunni brothers read. It is curious that Imam Ali (a.s.) "never mentioned" his appointment at Ghadir, however, Abu Harirah seemed to have had a "better memory".

��� ������ ������� ������� ���: ��� ������ �� ��� ���� ������ ���� �� ��� ���� ���� ������ �� ���� ���� ������ � ����� ������ ���� ���� ������ �� ��� ���� �� ����� �� ���� �� ����� ����� ���� �� ������ ���� ������ ���: ��� �������� ������ ������ ����� ����� ���� ���� ��� ����: ����� ����� ���� ���� ���� ��� ���� ���� ���� ����: �� ��� ����� ���� ����� ����� ��� �� ����� ����� �� ����� ���: ����: ��� ���� ��� ���� ���� ���� ����: �� ��� ����� � ���� ����� ����� ��� �� ����� ���� �� �����.�



Al-Hafiz Abu Ya`la al-Mawsili quoted saying: Abu Bakr b. Abi Shayba narrated to us that Sharik told us from Abi Yazid Dawud al-Awdi from his father Yazid al-Awdi; and al-Hafiz Ibn Jarir al-Tabari quoted from Abi Kurayb from Shadhan from Sharik from Idris and his brother Dawud, from their father Yazid al-Awdi, who said:

Abu Hurayra entered the mosque and the people gathered around him. A young man stood up and said: "I adjure you by Allah did you hear the Messenger of Allah, blessings and salutations of Allah on him, say: Of whomsoever I am master, `Ali is his master. O Allah, befriend one who befriends him and be at enmity with one who is at enmity with him?" He (Yazid) said: He (Abu Hurayra) said: "I bear witness that I heard the Messenger of Allah say: Of whomsoever I am master, `Ali is his master. O Allah, befriend one who befriends him and be at enmity with one who is at enmity with him."

Ibn Kathir, `Imad al-Din Isma`il b. `Umar b. Kathir b. Daw', al-Qarashi al-Dimashqi

Al-Bidayah wa'l-Nihayah fi al-Ta'rikh  
Cairo: Matba`at al-Sa`adah (14 vols), 1932-  vol. 5, p. 214   
http://al-islam.org/sources/default.asp?person=289&ed=66 7&pg=v5p214.gif

al-Tabari, Muhammad b. Jarir, Abu Ja`far al-Tabari
(d. 310 AH/922 CE)

Muhammad b. al-`Ala' b. Kurayb, Abu Kurayb al-Hamdani al-Kufi
(d. 248 AH/862 CE)

Al-'Aswad b. `Amir Shadhan, Abu `Abd al-Rahman al-Wasiti al-Shami
(d. 208 AH/823 CE)

Sharik b. `Abd Allah b. Abi Sharik (Sinan ?), Abu `Abd Allah al-Qadi al-Nakha`i al-Kufi
(d. 177 AH/793 CE)

Dawud b. Yazid b. `Abd al-Rahman, Abu Yazid al-'Awdi al-Za`afiri al-A`raj
(d. 150 AH/767 CE)

Yazid b. `Abd al-Rahman b. al-'Aswad, Abu Dawud al-'Awdi al-Za`afari al-Kufi
(d. 0 AH/622 CE)

Abu Hurayrah, `Abd al-Rahman b. Sakhr
(d. 59 AH/679 CE)

 

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
Back to Top
Ayubi1187 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 06 December 2001
Location: Somalia
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ayubi1187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2005 at 6:45am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki Ali Zaki wrote:

So what about Ghadir? Let's hear the context for that speech (which has been transmitted through hundreds of chains of narration, both Sunni and Shia). Will you say that the prophets stopped (even Sunni's agree on this low number) over 10,000 people in the middle of the desert to tell them that "Ali is your friend"! when this fact had already been established and his "brotherhood with Ali (a.s.)" was already well� known.



What happened with the fantastic 100 000 people shia used tel people? have you ever toughed about why we never see this as appointment of caliph? because we know and follow the historical context of this sayings. Even Ali(ra) never made any reference to this event. The question is why all the sunni refernce you gave non of them interpreted as appointment? Its because they know why it was said. As i said many times before any one can make his own history if he removes the context. I know your mullahs never gives you the complete hadith when they want to prove you something. They only cut the part they like. 90% of the references you gave gives you detail explanation. her i will quote for you the words shia like so much and the context ayatollahs omit.

"The Messenger of Allah sent to Yemen two divisions of army, one under the command of Ali ibn Abu Talib and the other under the Command of Khalid ibn Walid, and said to them: Ali shall command both the divisions if they meet and eacg will be in charge of his division when seperate. We encountered the tribe of Banu Zubaydah of Yemen and we fought desperately. The Muslims gained victory over the polytheists and we killed their warriors and made their women and children prisoners of war. 'Ali set aside a female prisoner of war for himself. Khalid wrote a letter to the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, informing him of the affair and gave me the letter to convey it. When I came to the Prophet, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, I delivered the letter, which he persued. I noticed the signs of anger in his face and submitted: O Messenger of Allah I beg your pardon. You sent me with a person and commanded me to obey him in bringing this letter. The Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, then said: Do not reprove him for he is from me and I am from him and he is your master after me, and he repeated it again." her is all the authentic references that mention this context with different wordings
Musnad, Ahmad Hanbal, vol. 4 p. 438 Caption: The Tradition of Imran
- Tabari, The Last Years of the Prophet, IX, p. 111
- Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, p. 650
- Musnad, Ahmad Hanbal, vol. 5 p. 356
- Mustadrak, Hakim, vol. 3 p. 110
- Nasai, p. 17
- Mustadrak, Hakim, vol. 11 p. 11,
al Dhahabi in his
Talkhis al Mustadrak,
- Kanz al Ummal, Muttaqi al Hindi, vol. 6 p. 400
-Muhammad, His Life based on the earliest sources

The only way shia can prove something is by omitting, hiding, concocting and lying. Shia likes to quote the exaggerated and fabricated hadith about ghadir khum and then gives references to all authentic references that gives the true wordings and context.
Back to Top
Ali Zaki View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2005 at 5:22am

So what about Ghadir? Let's hear the context for that speech (which has been transmitted through hundreds of chains of narration, both Sunni and Shia). Will you say that the prophets stopped (even Sunni's agree on this low number) over 10,000 people in the middle of the desert to tell them that "Ali is your friend"! when this fact had already been established and his "brotherhood with Ali (a.s.)" was already well  known.

How easily our Sunni brothers disregard the clear and direct words of the Messenger of Allah (s.w.a.).

"...my brother 'Ali as my vizier."

"O my people! This 'Ali is my brother, my successor and my caliph amongst you. Listen to him and obey him.''

'Ali, the son of Abu Talib, is my brother and my wasiyy (successor) and my caliph, and the Imam after me."

"Aliyyun wa shi'atuhu humu 'l-fa'izun.

"'Ali and his party (Shi `ah) will be the triumphant ones." [2]

 Say (Oh Prophet): "I do not ask of you a wage for this, except love for (my) relatives." (ash-Shura, 42:23 )

Abu Na'im narrates that the Prophet addressed the Ansar and said: "Shall I guide you to something which, if you grasp it after me, you will never go astray?" They said: "Yes, O Messenger of Allah ! " He said: "It is 'Ali: love him with the love (you have) for me, and respect him with the respect (you have) for me. For God has ordered me through Gabriel to tell you this."

Hilyatu 'l-awliya', vol.1, p.63.

Love for and disobedience to a person cannot live in the same heart.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
Back to Top
Ayubi1187 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 06 December 2001
Location: Somalia
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ayubi1187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2005 at 7:17am
Quote The First Time


This happened in the early stage of islam when the prophet(saw) was commanded to start the mission with his relatives. And it was only amoungs the children of sons of Abd Al Muttalib that he said this.



Quote The Second Time



The Prophet left `Ali behind in the campaign of Tabuk. Ali(ra) said: "O Messenger of Allah! Are you leaving me behind with the women and children?"
The Prophet replied: "Are you not happy to stand next to me like Harun next to Musa, save that there is no Prophet after me?" It was in this context that he was called like Harun(as) who was left behind when Musa(as) went to mount Sinai. And if we take literally this would be against the shia because Harun(as) was not the successor to Musa(as).


Quote The third Time


If you read history you will know why the prophet(saw) said this. it was after the army under the leadership of Ali(ra) returned from mission to yemen that some people from his army started to complain about Ali(ra) read more about this in Musnad, Ahmad Hanbal, vol. 4 p. 438, Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, p. 650. 2)Tabari, The Last Years of the Prophet, IX, p. 111. 3) Mustadrak, Hakim, vol. 11 p. 11, and al Dhahabi in his. Talkhis al Mustadrak
Back to Top
Ali Zaki View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2005 at 6:17am

 Salam alakum Brother,

Here is the short answer. More can be given upon request.

The First Time

" When the verse: "And warn thy nearest relations (26:214), was revealed, the Prophet ordered 'Ali to prepare food and invite the sons of 'Abdu'l-Muttalib so that he could convey to them the words of Allah. After the feast, the Prophet intended to talk to them, but Abu Lahab interfered by saying:"Verily, your comrade has entranced you". Upon hearing this statement all of them dispersed.

The next day, the Messenger of Allah again called them for a feast. After they had finished with their food, the Prophet addressed them: "O sons of 'Abdul'l-Muttalib, I have brought for you the good of this world and the next, and I have been appointed by the Lord to call you unto Him. Therefore, who amongst you will administer this cause for me and be my brother, my successor and my caliph?" No one responded to the Prophet' s call except 'Ali who was the youngest of the congregation. The Prophet then patted 'Ali's neck and said: "O my people! This 'A1i is my brother, my successor and my caliph amongst you. Listen to him and obey him.''

Ibnu 'l-Athir: al-Kamil, [vol.5, pp. 62-3]; al Baghawi: at-Tafsir, [vol. 4, p.127]; al-Khazin: at-Tafsir, [vol. 4, p. 127]; al-Bayhaqi: Dala 'ilu 'n-nubuwwah [vol. I, pp.428-30]; as-Suyuti: ad-Durru 'l-manthur [vol.5, p.97]; al-Muttaqi al-Hindi: Kanzu 'l-'ummal [vol.15, pp .100,113,115-7]; Abu 'l -Fida': al -Mukhtasar, [vol. I, pp .116-7]; at -Tabari: at Tarikh, [vol. I pp .171-3]; Carlyle , T.: On Heroes, Hero Worship and the Heroic in History, [p.54]; Gibbon, E.: The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, [vol. 3, p. 94]; Davenport, J.: An Apology for Muhammed and the Koran [ p.21 ]; Irving, W.: Mahommet and His Successors [p.45]. (For further details, see al-Amini: al-Ghadir [ vol. 2, pp.278 89] . )

The Second Time

"Verily, your guardian (wali) is Allah, His messenger, and the believers - those who perform the prayers and give zakat (alms) while bowing down (in ruku')."(5:55)

" Abu Dharr al-Ghifari says that one day he was praying with the Prophet when a beggar came to the Prophet's mosque. No one responded to his pleas. The beggar raised his hands towards heavens and said, "Allah! be a witness that I came to Thy Prophet's mosque and no one gave me anything". 'Ali (as) was bowing in ruku' at that time. He pointed his little finger, on which was a ring, towards the beggar who came forward and took away the ring. This incident occurred in the Prophet's presence who raised his face towards heaven and prayed: "O Lord! my brother Musa had begged of Thee to open his breast and to make his work easy for him, to loose the knot of his tongue so that people might understand him, and to appoint from among his relations his brother, as his vizier, and to strengthen his back with Harun and to make Harun his partner in his work. O Allah! Thou said to Musa, 'We will strengthen thy arm with thy brother. No one will now have an access to either of you!' O Allah! I am Muhammad and Thou hast given me distinction. Open my breast for me, make my work easy for me, and from my family appoint my brother 'Ali as my vizier. Strengthen my back with him". The Prophet had not yet finished his prayers when Jibril brought the above quoted verse.  "

See [at-Tabari; at-Tafsir, vol. 6, p. 186]; as-Suyuti: ad-Durru 'l-manthur, [vol. 2,,, pp. 293-4]; ar-Razi: at-Tafsiru 'l-kabir, [vol.12, p. 26]; az-Zamakhshari: at-Tafsir (al-Kashshaf), vol.l, p.649; [al-Jassas: Ahkamu 'l-Qur'an, vol. 2, pp.542-3; al-Khazin: at-Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 68]

The Third Time

Ghadir Khumm lies in Juhfa between Mecca and Medina, however, some Shia scholars now believe that the place may not refer to this specific geographic location. The general area is the desert area between Mecca and Medina. When the Prophet was on his way home, after performing his last pilgrimage, Jibril brought him this urgent command of Allah:

O Apostle! deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people . . . (5 :67)

The Prophet stopped at once and ordered that all people who had gone ahead should be called back, and he waited for those who were following. When all the caravan had gathered, a pulpit was set up by piling up camel saddles; the acacia thorns were swept away. The Prophet ascended the pulpit and delivered a long sermon. The day was very hot; people had to stretch their cloaks under their feet and over their heads. The Prophet addressed them as follows: O you people! Know it well that Jibril came down to me several times bringing me orders from the Lord, the Merciful, that I should halt at this place and inform every man, white and black, that 'Ali, the son of Abu Talib, is my brother and my wasiyy (successor) and my caliph, and the Imam after me. His position to me is like that of Harun to Musa, except that there is to be no prophet after me, and he is your master next to Allah and His Prophet. "

ALSO:

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the
     position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no
     Prophet after me"
                                    |     : |. .         .      .. .  |
        _w q_o    . _o    .  q   |_8   4_| _,_o_,     _,_o  ,__,_, |
     (_S   /     (_)     (_) / /          /    .   (_S

                                                    .   | |   .  |  | ||
                                        ]_e_,    _,_,  |_|  4_, |  |_||
                                    (_S    .  (_S.
Sunni References:
(1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700
(2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71
(3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12
(4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174
(5) al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16
(6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

 

Asnad of Hadith of Ghadir:

a. al-Hafiz Abu 'Isa at-Tirmidhi (d.279 A.H.) has said in his Sahih (one of the as-Sihah as-Sittah) that "This is a good (hasan) and correct (sahih) hadith.''[24]

b. al-Hafiz Abu Ja'far at-Tahawi (d. 321 A.H.) has said in his Mushkil u'l-athar that "This hadith is sahih according to the chains of narrators (asnad) and no one has said anything contrary to its narTators." [25]

c. Abu 'Abdillah al-Hakim an-Naysaburi (d. 405 A.H.) has narrated this hadith from several chains in his al-Mustadrak and has said that this hadith is sahih[26]

d. Abu Muhammad Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-'Asim; has said: "This hadith is accepted by ummah, and it is in conformity with the principles.

Likewise, the following traditionalists (among hundreds of others) have quoted that this hadith is sahih:-

1. Abu 'Abdillah al-Mahamili al-Baghdadi in his Amali; 2. Ibn 'Abdi 'l-Barr al-Qurtubi in al-Isti 'ab; 3. Ibnu 'l-Maghazili ash-shafi'i in al-Manaqib; 4. Abu Hamid Ghazzali in Sirru 'l-'alamayn; 5. Abu'l-Faraj ibn al-Jawzi in alManaqib; 6. Sibt ibn al-Jawzi in Tadhkirat khawaissi 'l-ummah; 7. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid al-Mu'tazili in his Sharh Nahji 'l-balaighah; 8. Abu 'Abdillah al Ganji ash-Shafi'i in Kifayatu 't-talib; 9. Abu 'l-Makarim 'Ala'ud-Din as-Simnani in al-'Urwatu'l-wuthqa; 10. Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani in Tahdhibu'l-tahdhib; 11. Ibn Kathir ad-Dimashqi in his Tarikh; 12. Jalalu'd-Din as-Suyuti; 13. al-Qastalani in al-Mawahibu 'l-ladunniyyah; 14. Ibn Hajar al-Makki in as-Sawa'iqu 'l-muhriqah; 15. 'Abdu'l-Haqq ad Dihlawi in Sharhu 'l-mishkat; and many others. [28]

It should be noted that all the names mentioned above are of Sunni scholars; and in Sunni usage, a hadith is called ''sahih'' when it is uninterruptedly narrated by persons of approved probity ('adil) who have perfect memory, does not have any defect, and is not unusual (shadhdh). [29]

If the above virtues are found in the asnad of a hadith but the memory of one or more of its narrators is a degree less than that required for sahih, then it is called "hasan[30]

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.